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Historical Inspiration This forum is dedicated to the discussion of historical knife design and its influence on modern custom knife work.

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  #1  
Old 03-06-2003, 11:28 AM
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Medieval Pattern Welding?

In doing research on pattern welding, it seems very prominent in during the migration era. Especially among Norse cultures or those that had contact with them. But I am having a hard time finding a later examples. Does anyone know of any examples from the 12th to 16th centuries? I am especially interested in western european knives.


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Old 03-09-2003, 12:03 PM
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Scott-
Check out this link. It's one man's history line of steel usage.

http://damascus.free.fr/f_damas/hist.htm

Overall based on my own research it seems to check out pretty close. Pattern welded steel seems to have become very limited in use (at least in Europe) once the ability to manufacture larger amounts of good quality steel occurred, which makes sense since pattern welding came about in large part due to the difficulty of making steel. But technology expanded and proof that steel was being produced on a much larger scale by the mid 1300's can be seen by the increasing use of plate armour.

Now what I haven't figured out is why pattern welded steel became popular again by the mid-1500's, although it was mostly used for firearm's barrels and very little for blades. Perhaps some property of the pattern welded steel or maybe due to the influence of the Ottoman Empire, who did use pattern welded steel?
I do know that from the mid 1500's to around 1910 or so Damascus barrels were extensively used on firearms, including the finest guns by such makers as Holland & Holland and Purdy. In fact "fake" Damascus was often used on some of the cheaper European guns in order to give them an aura of quality.

Chuck


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Old 03-09-2003, 12:32 PM
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I'm having difficulty in finding anything useful in my own library other than the fact that there are references to pattern-welded blades during that period... I'll look further afield.

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Old 03-09-2003, 12:43 PM
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Yep I remember seeing a few references myself to Medieval pattern welded blades (some by Oakeschott??? - I currently don't have the books available), but no pictures or further evidence that I recall. Most of the references were to the wonders of Damascus blades in stories brought back by the crusaders.
The only other sort of left hand comments are to "Spanish" blades that were made of Damascus and this is a good probable source for further research as the Moors controlled Spain up until 1492. I've seen pictures of some Moorish swords of the mid-late 1400's that appear to be pattern welded.

Chuck


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Old 03-18-2003, 12:02 PM
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Wild Rose said:

"Yep I remember seeing a few references myself to Medieval pattern welded blades (some by Oakeschott???"

I just checked Oakeshotts Archeology of Weapons last night, and didn't find any references. Any idea which Oakeshott book I should be looking in?


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Old 03-18-2003, 01:53 PM
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Scott-

I'm not even sure if the reference(s) was in Oakeschott that's why the questions marks. I would have thought off hand Archeology, but I guess not.

Sorry I can't be more help. I've got reams of hand written notes and I'm slowly plowing through them but no luck so far.

Chuck


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Old 03-18-2003, 02:31 PM
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Ok, in that case, back to the drawing board. Or at least the library actually. I'll keep digging thru my other Oakeshott books along with others.


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Old 03-20-2003, 03:46 PM
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Don Halter

Ahh...something I can help with. I also ran into the same problem. It seems pattern welding didn't become popular again until mid 1600's...well after the "designated SCA" timeframe for documentation. There are some examples, though, and I think I even have color photos of them . I'll dust off some books this weekend and see what I can find. I think I have references/pics of some eating knives from 1560-1590 and a couple bowie looking knives from 1400's.


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Old 03-20-2003, 03:54 PM
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Don,

Thank you. I look forward to what you can find.


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Old 04-22-2003, 04:52 PM
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PW in Europe

Scott:
ummmmm you coulda just asked me..I have three Euro blkade fragments from attributed 13th Cenbt sites that are PW as far as I can tell.... But it is difficult to tell if the PW pattern is actually a pattern by design or simply material piling for refinement..

JPH


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  #11  
Old 04-22-2003, 05:25 PM
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Scott, there is a reference to four pattern-welded blades from the late 12th to mid 13th centuries in Knives and Scabbards - Medieval Finds From Excavations in London. p16

Roger


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Old 04-22-2003, 06:10 PM
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Jim,

I would have asked you, but I can never be certain that you even get my e-mail at times. However, I would love to see those fragments at some point. Oh and BTW, send my a photo of yourself that you like so I can create an avatar file and posting instructions for you, like I did for Tony.

Roger,

Yup, your right! I just found that referance shortly after this thread died off last go around. I was looking in my copy weekend before last, and found it. That still leaves a gap in the historical record some 300 years wide. Which strikes me as odd.


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Last edited by sjaqua; 04-22-2003 at 06:12 PM.
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