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Historical Inspiration This forum is dedicated to the discussion of historical knife design and its influence on modern custom knife work.

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  #1  
Old 01-15-2003, 04:29 PM
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Irish Knives

I've always love traditional and historical knives, specially the ones than Jonathan has been doing including that exquisite Dirk in the display area.

In thinking back to my own Irish roots, are there any Irish inspired knives? I've never heard of any, and maybe us Irish weren't very inspiring but I would think there should be something out there?


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Old 01-15-2003, 06:46 PM
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That's a really good question Mike. My initial thoughts are:

1. Celtic knives and swords as found across the British Isles and Gaul - I mean in pre-Roman and Roman times

2. Roman-influenced blades

3. Viking and Scandinavian-influenced blades during the Viking presence in Ireland

4. After that I really don't have a clue

This is only opinion, but I don't think the Irish developed any particular blade designs in the same way as the Scots. But then neither did the Welsh or the English, at least not a small number of designs.

Let's see if we get any more knowledgeable answers and then it's time for some research

Roger


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Old 01-15-2003, 07:21 PM
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The Irish did have their own 'ring hilted' sword style during the Middle Ages. I seem to remember seeing some daggers done in the style also. Blades were the basic standard two edged dagger style and it had sort of spatulate ended quillons. The pommel was an open ring turned on edge through which the tang ran and was then peened over.
The Highland Scots and Wylde Ersche were often very closely related and maintained close ties up until the 17th century anyway. The Celts migrated to Scotland from Ireland and many of the Clans held lands in both countries. After losing the battle of the Boyne in Ireland and the '15 Stewart uprising in Scotland things changed dramatically for the clans. After the Boyne many Irish fled to Europe and fought as mercenaries - the first of the Wild Geese.

Here is a link to a Celtic Weaponry site that shows an Irish ring hilted sword at the bottom of the page.
http://www.celticgrounds.com/chapters/c-weapons.htm


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Old 01-16-2003, 12:18 AM
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Dang,

I was going to suggest the ring-hilted sword. Unfortunately, my only experience with the ring-hilted sword comes from Museum Replicas, who did a sword with one. I say unfortunate because sometimes they aren't the most... precise when it comes to things.

Funny thing now that you mention it is... I can't think of a particular knife associated with the Irish. A quick google search turns up only the aforementioned ring-hilt as specifically Irish.

My guess is that they are too busy with poetry, music and Guinness to bother... Ahhhh, Galway. How I miss Her.

This is in sharp contrast to the Scots... who knife each other at every chance and read a bit less.


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Old 01-16-2003, 06:38 AM
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Thank you all very much, I guess I will take up drinking instead of knife making . Thanks for that link to the Celtic weapons page, I'll have to look into that a little more.


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Old 01-16-2003, 08:42 AM
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Mike-
Also check out some general Irish History. There are lots of woodcuts (15th/16th century anyway) that show the irish wearing the ring hilted swords. I'll look through some of my stuff and see if I can come up with any and post them.

Chuck


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  #7  
Old 02-17-2003, 09:58 AM
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I believe the Irish also had their own style of dirk basically very similar to the scottish dirk. I've seen one image of an Irishman carying a dirk that in proportions looked Identical to the scottish ones but instead of knotworks on the hilt he had a heraldic beast of some description. I have an image of it in one of my books I'll try to look it up.
the other specifically Irish blade Is the La Tene period Irish short sword, they where small enough to be clasified as long daggers, although they where swords. the most prominent and well preserved example of this type was unearthed at Lisnacrogher. they where prety much unique to Ireland as the continental and Brittish Celts where carrying much longer swords durring this period.
thats all i can think of at the moment (other than the ring hilts)
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Old 02-17-2003, 01:41 PM
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Hey Jake,

I'd love to see a pic of the Lisnacrogher sword if you have one or know of a link- I searched google to no avail, although I found the scabbards.


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Old 02-17-2003, 02:54 PM
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I'll see if I can uncover an academic in Dublin

Well, not literally ..... you get the drift...

Roger


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Old 02-20-2003, 08:32 AM
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there's been quite a bit of talk about that the Lisnacrogher piece over on the Ancient weapons forum at swordforum, mostly headed up by a very knowledgable fellow by the name of Nate B. i'm afraid i don't have a link. I'll look around and if all else failes i can scann an image from 'ancient Pagan ireland' by Barry raftery.
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  #11  
Old 02-20-2003, 08:59 AM
John McPherson John McPherson is offline
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Irish skeans

Also on sword forum, some months ago in the Scottish Life forum, there was a thread on woodcuts from an English book showing several of the weapons of the 'Wild Irish', the counterparts of the highlanders. Someone posted a picture of a reproduction of the particular long dirk/short sword called a skean, but no books or other sources that I have found show historical examples. If you find anything, please share.
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Old 02-21-2003, 10:45 PM
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http://www.unc.edu/courses/art111/ce...gue/scabbards/

good looking Irish scabbards....

Trish
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Old 02-22-2003, 11:08 AM
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"Celtic" Dirk


"A great Irish chieftain in his national dress: Sir Niall O'Neill, 2nd Baronet of Killeleagh, Lord Lieutenant of Armagh, who was mortally wounded as the Colonel of O'Neill's Dragoons, fighting for the Jacobite Cause at the battle of the Boyne in 1690. His portrait by J. M. Wright in 1680 (now in the Tate Gallery, though a slightly different version of it is at Dunrobin Castle) is unique, in that it depicts a great Irish noble in the Erse costume of that period; with his 'wild Irish ' fringed cloak, curious but beautifully adorned Erse apron, long red hose, pointed brogues, Celtic dirk, basket-hilted broadsword, great oval shield of studded red leather, gold-tipped black javelin, and elaborately- tooled red leather conical cap with the flowing plumes of an Irish chieftain. Sir Niall descended in the direct male line from King Domnall 'the Young Ox' O'Neill, elder son of Aodh 'Athlone', King of the North of Ireland (1030-1033), whose younger son Anrothan was ancestor of the Highland chiefs of Lamont, Maclachlan, Macneil, MacEwen and other clans of Cowall and Knapdale in Scotland."
Picture and caption from "The Highland Clans" Moncreiffe & Hicks 1968 (no ISBN)

Notes:
(1) The "Celtic Dirk" looks no different than the Highland Dirks of the period.
(2) A good example of the experts getting it wrong. Upon close observation of even this poor photograph the "curious but beautifully adorned Erse apron" is obviously a pouch worn in the same manner as the Scottish sporran. Note the tassle ended cords for closing the top. It is very close in style to the gipciere or hunters pouch of the period.
(3) He is also wearing trews not a kilt which was worn extensively in Ireland as well as Scotland. I've always found it curious that although it was the Celtic "race" who first invented trousers they are best known for wearing the kilt. Of course there are practical reasons for the Irish and Scots wearing such a garment. It is eminently practical when you consider how many small streams both both countires have due to the wet weather. Just pull of your shoes if you even wore them and stride through the water. Then dry your legs off, no material to stay wet.
(4) Remember up until the time of the Battle of the Boyne, many Irish and Highland Scots families were related by blood and continued close contact. Some of these Great Families were the : O'Neills/McNeills and the O'Donnells/Mcdonalds to name just a couple.


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  #14  
Old 02-28-2003, 07:52 PM
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The new book on Vikings swords, which I added to book shelf, has a few examples of Viking Era Irish swords.

Swords Of The Viking Age
Ian Peirce, Ewart Oakeshott, Lee A. Jones
The Boydell Press, Woodbridge
December, 2002
ISBH: 0 85115 914 1

There are few viking age finds from the National Museum of Irland, Dublin, in the book. These blades show a distinct Irish subset of Viking blades.


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Old 03-25-2003, 02:36 PM
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skean

this page has a skean on it...
http://www.irisharms.ie/
seems to be just a long thin single edged knife.
aus5tin


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