Your Thoughts?

[Ed Caffrey]

Hi Gang!

As some of you know, the Bosie, ID show (Rocky Mountain Knife Show) is coming up in late Oct. I will be attending this show, and looking forward to it being even better than last year.

Recently I received an email from the show promoter, asking me to consider taking part in what they are calling a "Knife Performance Challenge". After reading the "tasks" slated for this event, and considering it, I will have to pass. (you can see the "tasks" on the right hand side of this page: http://www.rockymountainknifeshow.co...Challenge.aspx)

After thinking about, I can understand that they are trying to promote custom knives as "users", but what troubles me is that after reading the list of tasks, many of them are specific things that most knifemakers warn customer NOT to do with a knife, and I do not know of any custom knifemaker who would warranty/repair/replace a knife if a customer were to tell them that they had punched it through a steel drum, opened a tin can, chopped wire, used it as a screwdriver, or intentionally dropped it point first on concrete.
My thought is that if a knifemaker did those things in a public venue, it would be like telling customers/potential customers that it's OK to do those things with a knife....and might even imply that the knife/knives would be warrantied for such things.

Am I over reacting here? Does anybody else see the the potential for grief down the road when a customer wrecks the point of a blade by using it for a screwdriver, then wants it repaired/replaced because they saw the knifemaker doing it in a public venue?
My first instinct when I read the "tasks" scheduled for this event was to show up with my tool belt, with a pair of "dikes", and crowbar, wire cutters, a Phillips and straight screwdriver, and a can opener, along with one of my knives, and go through it using the proper tool for the job....but I suspect about the time I buckled on my tool belt, I'd get thrown out.

[Doug Lester]

Ed, I'm with you on this. Some of these things go beyond the "general and practical applications and uses" which define the testing parameters. Yes, knives probably have been used to open a can of beans on many occasions and I've even used one to tighten a screw, usually with limited success, but those activities will often cause damage to the blade. Stabbing through oil drums and cutting heavy eledrical wire is right up there with driving the knife into a tree as a step up to a stand under the heading of extreme abuse of the knife.

I know that the ABS test requires a blade to bend 90 degrees without breaking but that is to test the ability to do differential hardening or a significant soft draw that would allow this to be done. As you once pointed out to me it's not required because it's a desirable characteristic of a "superior" blade to be able to stand up to this abuse. Most of those tests mentioned are rather practicle but those four things constitute abuse of a knife that I would not warrantee against. As one maker that I ran across once said on his web site "I do not warrantee my knives against stupidity". He was actually the one who sited a case of a buyer who expected him to repair a knife that was driven inot a tree trunk to be used as a step to get up into his blind.

Another thing. If someone has their hand slip off the handle as they try to stab through an oil drum they may have to get that person to a hand surgeon real fast. They need to rethink the safety on that one.

Doug

[Eli Jensen]

I also agree. Does a painter rub his masterpiece with sandpaper to demonstrate the strength of the paint he used?

[Horsewright]

I have to agree. Knives are made to CUT. I have drills for making holes in steel, pry bars for moving big heavy stuck things and screw####### for driving screws. Like your idea Ed of the tool belt, might be worth getting tossed out.

[gsimmo]

I'm going to say that this is one really bad idea, esp. in a time when people can file and win a case because their coffee was hot and burned them. "high level of quality expected for general and practical applications and uses." from the site and compared to what a knife should be used for most of the tests are not general nor practical. I know I am young when it comes to this business, but this should not even have been proposed, much less be carried out in any manner in my opinion. If I were to go to this (can't due to school and such) I'd throw on my tool belt right along side Ed....

-Geoff

[MLWillmarth]

Ed,

I haven't even started making knives yet, but I have to agree, just doesn't seem like the right thing to do. My troops would say that the good idea fairy visited these folks. The good idea fairy is notorious for giving leaders ideas about making decisions, policies or procedures without looking at the secondary effects that end up causing more harm than good.

They still have 2 months or so before the show. Maybe proposing a set of tests that you would be willing participate in, would be a way to bring them around?

On the other hand, seems to me that people that buy custom knives appreciate the craftsmanship of a knife made completely by hand by a master craftsman. Your guarantee should be enough. Participating in the tests seems to me as a risky move, with potential for loss, and little potential for gain. That might just be the "officer" in me over-thinking things again.

[cappaletti]

I'm with u Ed...

[WBE]

I fully agree with you Ed.

[J. Doyle]

You already know my thoughts.........right there with you.

[Jim T]

Using a knife to stab holes in a steel drum is like using a wrench to hammer nails. Not a good idea. Specific tools are made for specific purposes.

Don?t abuse ?em if ya wanna keep usin? ?em.

Jim

[Rick McGee]

I doubt I would have thought it thru as well as you have Ed. Ultimately you are right. As my brother used to tell me, it takes a genious to invent a tool, but any idiot can mis-use it.

[Ed Caffrey]

I got an email today from the promoter, and my points about this challenge were well taken. I appreciate that very much. He also asked if I could compile a list of what I considered realistic events, while still having some "theatrics".
Honestly, I can come up with all kinds of what I consider valid cutting tests/tasks, but as far as "theatrics" go, my only idea would be to hang up a hog carcass, with the hide still on it, and have participants skin and "butcher" 1/4 of the hog.
I also mentioned that I think the event would be a much more realistic "challenge" if a third party were to go to individual participants tables, and randomly select the knife that the maker would use to perform the tasks.....this would take the "making a special knife for a special purpose(s)" out of the equation, and in many ways would be a real challenge for some makers! I doubt that would ever fly though.

[ARCustomKnives]

I don't know guys; I'm kind of on the fence about a few things here. I mean, on one side of the coin, is somebody going buy a $1000 custom damascus hunter from Ed and use it to slice up sheets of cardboard, de-limb tree branches, chop 2x4's or even open their mail with it? 9 times out of 10, it probably goes in a display case and may never cut anything. (Maybe I'm wrong? But bear with me for a moment.) SHOULD it be able to do all those things? Absolutely.

Now, for a more practical example, what if I'm using my hunting or skinning knife to process a deer and I hit a bone? Should the tip break off because it was only "designed" to cut skin and meat? Sure, it's not a boning knife, but it shouldn't disintegrate either.

I mean, we're not trying to make knives that can cut an '85 Ford F150 in half, but it should be able to cut the top off of an aluminum soda can and still function.

Now, concerning the particular tests mentioned:

1. Cut through a 1? rope that is laying on a tabletop
Every knife on the planet should be able to do this. Heck, a knife made from mild steel should do this.

2. Slice a 2x4? piece of wood into three vertical sections (with aid of mallet)
I don't see why splitting a piece of lumber into 3 pieces should be any kind of issue for a fixed blade either. Dull OR sharp.

3. Open the top of a 8oz. can of beans
Now we're getting a little tricky. No, a knife should not be used to open a bean can... BUT it should be able to, especially considering that most can openers we use are probably made of junk stainless anyhow. My thoughts are that if you ruin your knife poking it through a pice of tin that's less than 1/16" thick, there's no way in hell it's gonna stand up to the accidental bone while skinning a deer.

4. Whittle a point from a ?? dowel
If it can't sharpen what basically amounts to a large pencil, then it's probably worthless for much anything else any how.

5. Cut through a #14 electrical wire held from vice (with aid of mallet)
This is another one that makes a lot of guys cringe, makers included, but it's honestly not that impressive considering how soft copper is. Will it dull your knife quicker than most other things? Yes. Should you be using a pair of wire cutters instead? Yes. Should your knife blade chip or roll on 14ga wire? Absolutely not if it's treated correctly.

6. Tighten down a large screw
Ok, this may be one that I don't agree with. Cutting and stabbing with your knife is one thing, but torquing it against hardened steel? Maybe if the screw had a wide cross section, a deep slot, and the corners were rounded off? Also, it depends on if they're trying to drive in an unpiloted wood screw, or a threaded machine screw. Even screw####### typically have a fairly high Rockwell hardness. There's a reason.

7. Slice a large circle through cardboard
Again, should be easy.

8. Puncture a 55 gal drum three times
Now we are getting into the importance of edge and point geometry more than anything. Even a poor knife should be able to do this with a wide tip.

9. Drive point into block of wood 1/2 length of blade and wiggle back out
Again, another test designed to expose what is perceivably the weakest part of your average blade. Depending on wood type and technique, this probably shouldn't be a deal breaker for a good user.

10. Peel an apple and slice into quarters
If it's a knife designed for hunting and skinning, it should probably be able to do this.

11. Cut three 6? strips of leather that is laying on a tabletop
I would really question a knife that couldn't perform this task. Especially a custom knife.

12. Drop knife blade down 3? onto concrete with aid of tube
This test seems asenine to me. What's the point? (no pun intendid)
If your point is still intact from the other tests (as it really should be), I don't see what else you are proving with this test.

[ARCustomKnives]

Now, just to be fair, I don't think we should encourage people to perform abusive tasks with knives, when there are obviously other tools designed for many of these purposes.
I don't think knives should be warrantied for such abuse either.

BUT, I also don't think there's anything wrong with instilling a little bit of confidence in your work buy performing (most of) these tests one time.

[cdent]

Originally Posted by ARCustomKnives

... I also don't think there's anything wrong with instilling a little bit of confidence in your work buy performing (most of) these tests one time.

I think the important thing is the 'most of' part. I'm guessing that the tasks that put metal on metal are the deal breakers, and it doesn't seem like you're too keen on them either.

I think a purpose built 'knife' could be hammered into a steel drum all day long and wear its scratches like a badge of honor, but what if someone tries that with a 3 1/2" skinner just because it has the same makers mark on it.

Possibly worse, what if a knife is eliminated early on because the spine mushroomed a bit from the mallet. Is that a reasonable reflection on the maker's ability to place dead last in the 'competition'.

Maybe they should also have a bbq sauce competition to do something with all the pork goodness.

Just thinking it's an apples and oranges thing, Craig