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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 12-13-2015, 05:47 PM
jdale jdale is offline
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Stainless or CPM steel recommendations

With the new evenheat KF27 I am wanting to get some steel besides my standard 1084. I am itching to try some SS and CPM steel from Aldo but he has so many to choose from. Can anyone give me some recommendations as to your favorites?
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  #2  
Old 12-13-2015, 06:16 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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I have used S30V for many years and have been very pleased with it. There are some newer variations like S35V but its all pretty similar.

The bad news is that you won't get the best performance from any of these high end stainless steels unless you add cryo to the process. That's pretty much across the board for high end stainless.

The other consideration is that S30V - and I'm sure a fair number of others - has more than one way to HT listed on their specs sheets. Naturally, the commercial blade makers tend to choose the easiest one. As custom makers we really need to choose the difficult way. Why? Because those processes are much harder to automate and the results are magnitudes better than the easy way. That's one major thing that makes our knives worth more to the customer than a commercial knife made of the same steel.

To be more clear here: the easy way for S30V is an air cool quench. The difficult way is an interrupted fast oil quench at 900 F followed by an air blast of at least 2 atm until the steel is below 150 F. Both ways followed by cryo. If you aren't set up for all that then you might as well stay with 440C or 154CM or similar. They cost less and will make about the same performance as S30V done the easy way ....


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Old 12-14-2015, 03:18 AM
Ed of all trade Ed of all trade is offline
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would dry ice work for the cryo? Ed
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Old 12-14-2015, 08:33 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Dry ice in diesel is a common substitute for the LN that is used in professional cryo. Dry ice provides about -100 F which is just barely enough to achieve the cryo effect but it is a useful substitute ...


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Old 12-14-2015, 08:52 AM
jdale jdale is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
Dry ice in diesel is a common substitute for the LN that is used in professional cryo. Dry ice provides about -100 F which is just barely enough to achieve the cryo effect but it is a useful substitute ...

Well that's good to know. I started looking into the cost of buying liquid nitrogen and I about shat myself.

Ray, where do you get your liquid nitrogen from? (in case I win the lotto and decide to buy some)
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Old 12-14-2015, 08:57 AM
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I get mine from OxArc, an industrial and medical gas supplier (welding supplier)...


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Old 12-14-2015, 10:19 AM
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ricky_arthur ricky_arthur is offline
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Jdale, Ed, If you look at the Crucible, Uddeholm, Sandvik data there are several very good stainless options that only need -100 sub zero quench. AEB-L and 154cm being 2 of them. Dry ice and acetone or denatured alcohol is the method I have been using. I haven't tried s35vn or a few of the "super" stainless steels because they really need a Cryo quench. However that being said, You would still get in the high 90's percentage wise of the performance they offer even with sub zero. The transformation of retained austenite to Martensite is not an on off switch that happens at a certain temperature, it occurs all the way down. The crucible Data is giving the temperature at which all the austenite that CAN be transformed WILL be transformed. By -100 most of the transformation has occured and it would be nearly impossible to tell a difference performance wise. S30vn for example shows it needs -112 degrees for complete transformation. Dry Ice and Alcohol will get down to -100 to -108 depending. How much are you giving up? It would be like a millionaire loosing a nickle. lol

154 cm is a pain to grind after heat treat, it's wear resistance make it about 3-4 times as hard to grind as simple carbon steel after heat treat. I hope in the end that is a good thing and shows up as edge retention. I have some AEB-L on its way and will be testing some of it because I have read so much good about it. Its supposed to be stainless for guys who hate stainless lol

Last edited by ricky_arthur; 12-14-2015 at 03:07 PM.
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Old 12-18-2015, 02:42 PM
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ricky_arthur ricky_arthur is offline
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Jdale, what steel did you decide to try?
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Old 12-18-2015, 02:57 PM
jdale jdale is offline
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I haven't placed the order yet but I think i will get 154CM, AEB-L, and some W2 as i have always wanted to try it. I just have to figure out what thickness and widths now.

I like the thought of having a few different steels to choose from, and if anything i can then do some side by side comparisons.
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Old 12-18-2015, 03:54 PM
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ricky_arthur ricky_arthur is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdale View Post
I haven't placed the order yet but I think i will get 154CM, AEB-L, and some W2 as i have always wanted to try it. I just have to figure out what thickness and widths now.

I like the thought of having a few different steels to choose from, and if anything i can then do some side by side comparisons.

Very good choices, I like w2 better than any other carbon steel Ive tried. The thickness depends on your use I suppose, but for kitchen knives i would suggest something between .100-.125 I like .156 for most non kitchen uses.

I just ordered some 52100 to try as well.
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  #11  
Old 12-19-2015, 11:19 AM
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Andrew Garrett Andrew Garrett is offline
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I've been using CPM 154 for a number of years and am very happy with it.
I use a Paragon KM-24D, 12"x12"x1" aluminum quench plates, and no cryo.
The blades hold the edge very well and polish like no other steel I've ever worked with.


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  #12  
Old 01-25-2016, 08:13 AM
LCooper LCooper is offline
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I'm assuming CPM154 is the same as 154CM. Is that correct? I've been using 440C with great success or should I say luck after reading reviews of 440C being produced lately. With that said I have a lot of the lower temp stainless foil I've been using on 440C. Has anyone used it with success at the slightly higher temp needed for 154?
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Old 01-25-2016, 08:23 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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CPM154 and 154CM are not the same steel. They may or may not have similar heat treat properties, I don't have the spec sheets in front of me right now. If memory serves they are close but if you're thinking the name is just a different way of saying the same steel, it's not. You should get the spec sheets, don't assume anything ...


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Old 01-25-2016, 01:49 PM
samuraistuart samuraistuart is offline
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The only difference between 154CM and CPM154 is the CPM is the particle version of the steel. They are identical in composition and are heat treated identically. The CPM version, of course due to particle metallurgy, has much smaller carbides than the older 154CM version.
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  #15  
Old 01-26-2016, 08:19 AM
argel55 argel55 is offline
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CPM154 has twice the lateral strength that 154cm has. Makes it very good for thin knives.
With its fine grain makes it nice for folder springs also.
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