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  #1  
Old 04-16-2016, 10:06 AM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
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Another FAKE on Ebay?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RANDALL-KNIF...kAAOSwVghXEk5s

Last edited by Ta2bill; 04-16-2016 at 08:54 PM.
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  #2  
Old 04-16-2016, 07:23 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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The seller has acknowledge it may be a copy. However.... someone please help me ...

I am struggling to indentify the markers that ID this as counterfeit. Stamp LOOKs good (see below), dimensions, construction look good, hilt and the brown Micarta look good, screws look good. If this was an early re-handled tenite it might be believable, but with the perfect condition I would wonder what would cause a re-handle. So could it have been a special order early 1960-62 before filling the Micarta holes, or an overlooked blade finished in 1963-4? I've never seen a pristene grind on an early '60s 14 so can't fall back on that, though the vertical grind lines look a little funky. If this is counterfiet it is remarkable.

First two pictures compare the etched logo fom Tbill's 1970 brass-back bowie and the logo from the subject 14. I had to twist Bills picture which distorted the perspective somewhat.. but pretty darn close. The "cross" shape of the hilts of the scimitars is correct in the 14...wish I had an etched Orlando logo from early 60s as the thickness of the scimitars is a little different. Also the orientation of Bill's is "type 2" and the 14 is "type 1," which I don't know if applies to etched logos. The shape of the "O" is certainly correct however.

Whoever etched this blade had access to a pantograph image, darn close to Randall's, and also access to the chemical etching bath process. Quite amazing.





Here are more pictures from the subject 14. What is it that is obviously counterfeit? Is it just the one-off nature of the knife?








Last edited by Jacknola; 04-20-2016 at 09:07 AM.
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Old 04-16-2016, 10:49 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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I looked around and on this site I found this line with a nice picture. It shows an etched Orlando blade from early 1960s, and etched Solingen blade. Obviously, the etched logo is different from the M-14 subject.. but it is also different from Bills Bowie logo.

http://www.knifenetwork.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=57680







The line referenced above had some good discussion about logos and some pictures of a Springfield that had been refurbished at the shop and had those seemingly vertical grind marks. Still, the grind lines on the M-14 make it look like it was not forged but created by stock removal... just don't know enough about knife construction to judge that.

But no one has done a study of etched logos so far as I know. I started one, but never got enough data to get into details. Anyway, here is what I think we know about etched logos on Orlando blades.

Outsourced etching was used by Randall from early 1940s and the same company did it for Randall until he acquired his own Pantagraph machine and acid bath in 1960-61. After that, Randall shop did their own etching. I don't know if the Randall logo was etched early-on by the out-source company, or just names and letters.. but it certainly could have been.

After Randall acquired his own equipment, a number of interesting logo etchings were seen including the different etchings on the second batch of model 17s ever made. But since no study has been made attempting a time line of etched logos, any statements about what was done when is problematic.

After looking at the logos, the logo on the 14 might be suspect. The scimitars just look a little sloppy. It almost looks like the scimitars were added later... Just the etched letters would have a precedent. But...

HELP...looking for a little help here.. just opinions are welcome, facts, deductions also wanted.

Last edited by Jacknola; 04-20-2016 at 09:09 AM.
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Old 04-18-2016, 12:15 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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I'm finally convinced that this is probably a counterfeit knife. But what a counterfeit!

Here is evidence from the etched logo. I had collected four examples of etched Orlando blades some years ago. They all pretty much exhibit the same fonts, spacing, and letter characteristics. (Note that they are all from mid-late 1960s however.) The subject Model-14 varies significantly from the standard mostly in the scimitar shape and location. So unless the early 1960s etched logo had a different pantographic image, the logo is counterfeit. The letters are remarkably good however, which means someone had a pantograph and acid bath and knew how to use them.



I've included some notes about the characteristics of legitimate mid-late 1960s etched logos for handy reference. I've also included some questions about etched logos on the slide.

The shop was having blades out-sourced etched beginning in 1943, but mostly (?) names and letters. When the shop relocated in 1960-61, they acquired their own pantograph and etching equipment and continued to deliver blades with etched letters.

When did the shop first etch a logo, or have a logo etched by outsource? Unfortunately, "conventional wisdom" about many things related to vintage RMKs has not proven to be very accurate. I'm looking for ... say ... an obviously 1940s, 50s or pre 1960s RMK with an etched logo on the blade. We know the Randall Made/Solingen etched logos first showed up about 1963 (?). Is this the earliest that an Orlando blade received an etched logo too?

Last edited by Jacknola; 04-20-2016 at 09:11 AM.
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Old 04-19-2016, 06:02 AM
BoBlade BoBlade is offline
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Great info, Jack. With the comparison pics you posted, the scimitars are clearly out of position!

I can't recall seeing any etched logos from the 40's or 50's. It seems to me that the shop just double stamped a knife if the first strike was light. Maybe someone else has seen one.

Best,

Ron
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Old 04-19-2016, 01:05 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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About the counterfeit, what I don't understand is that given the effort that went into this counterfeit knife, and the use of a pantograph and acid bath, why didn't the maker use an actual Randall made etched logo as the icon image? Well, maybe when this knife was made there were no Randall etched logos? ... but I doubt it. It seems like he just failed at the last hurdle.

About the date of etched logos, I'm have a sense that the Randall-made/Solingen etched logo appeared in mid-1963 on the first re-order of Solingen blades. So I would guess the Orlando etched logo was available then too. The two logos certainly were very close except for the substitution of the word "Solingen."



What I don't know is if knives earlier than 1963 had an etched logo. Randall acquired their own pantograph and acid bath equipment in 1960-61 (Gaddes) so a lot of the odd-etchings (see second batch, model 17) about that time were probably done in-house. Of course beginning in 1943 lots knives were etched with names and initials by the out-source, but I just don't know about logos. It would seem reasonable that some knives 1940s-50s would have had etched logos, but don't know any examples at this time...and therefore don't know what the pantograph icon image would have been.

It is easy to change pantograph icon images so many things are possible. This could be an interesting study. If you run across any strange looking etchings on old knives, lets collaborate in reviewing them. I've asked Bill to keep his eyes open too. Regards, Jack

Last edited by Jacknola; 04-20-2016 at 09:13 AM.
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Old 04-19-2016, 01:36 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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Looking into etched logos a little further? here is one of the earliest I?ve seen. It is on Steve?s knife, a replica of General Westmoreland?s. We would probably be safe to assume the original light stamp was polished off during finishing and an etched logo substituted. The ?SS? would indicate late 1963 or early 1964.





This is a knife that I have tried to imagine as having a unique etched logo. Obviously the pantograph icon is different from all the others etched logos we?ve examined? and it looks like a type 2 logo?except for the scimitars which are cartoonish and don?t seem to match the stamps of the era very well. The knife is definitively dated to last half of 1962 by the Johnson brown button sheath, east facing with no model numbers. (Note: on second look, stamped scimitar on the right of this logo looks very much like the faintly stamped one on Steve's knife above... so this is probably not an etched logo.)





Looking further into this, here is a 1963 12-9 I own. The stamp and scimitars are the same as the above knife from approximately the same era... proof that is a stamp, not etch logo. Oh well... nice try.

12-9 stamp



Just for grins, here is the etched logo on the ?most expensive belt buckle in the world? that was recently discussed. It seems to have the same pantograph image as all the knives examined so far.


Last edited by Jacknola; 04-20-2016 at 10:11 AM.
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