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Ed Caffrey's Workshop Talk to Ed Caffrey ... The Montana Bladesmith! Tips, tricks and more from an ABS Mastersmith.

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Old 02-24-2010, 08:49 AM
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Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
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Customer Requests.... How far would you go??

Just something to toss around....

If an individual contacted you, with a "custom" design that contained elements that were outside the "norm" for you as a maker, what would you do??

Example: "I want a 5" drop point hunter, WITH AT LEAST A 6" HANDLE." How would you handle this??


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Old 02-24-2010, 09:23 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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I'd make him a 5" drop point with a 6" handle after discussing it with him to make sure he understood what he was asking for. I would agree to make this knife because it is not what I consider outside my usual parameters since I always make knives that have both blades and handles (even if they do have more sensible proportions than that).

What I have learned through painful experience is to not accept orders for things that I have never done before and are so far away from what I normally do as to not be assured of success. For instance, just last week I turned down an order for two large knives. One would be a machete with a 24" blade, the other a camp knife with a 10" blade. I could squeeze the machete into my 24" oven but the problem was the handles: they had to be ebony and they had to have inlaid into them a pair of crossed swords made from camel bone of all things. I pointed out as gently as I could that there was nothing among the hundred knife pictures on my website that even remotely resembled an inlaid handle so what makes you think I could/would want to try that.

A couple of years back, a fellow who makes his living as a fantasy artist sent me a picture of one of my folders done up in a fantasy art style and asked if I would build it. Waaaaay outside my normal parameters, I said no.

If I have any concern that the customer does not clearly understand what he is ordering I will exchange emails with him until Hell freezes over or until I am satisfied that we are both on the same page. In some cases I suggest that they make a cardboard cut out of the knife so they can 'see' it before I build it - you'd be surprised how well that has opened the eyes of a few who were insistent about ordering folders that would measure over 12" OAL even after I told them it would be over 12" long. So, if he wants a 6" handle on a 5" knife I might suggest a cardboard model but if he still wanted it, I'd build it because it is just a handle and not some new and unfamiliar process or technique with which I have no experience.

After all, That's pretty much the definition of a 'custom' knife .....


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Old 02-24-2010, 09:40 AM
cdent cdent is offline
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There was a recent comment on a thread that could be an option. Charge a little extra and have a one off stencil made up saying 'custom made for ..... or custom design ....'. Could also be a good situation to get a nonrefundable deposit and make it quick when the project's ready to go, so there's less time for head scratching and buyers regret.

Take care, Craig

Oops, saw the other thread on BF late. With the customer's name etched on a butt plate, they'd be more invested in the decision and a future buyer would understand there'd be a charge (or might be a charge) to modify it (and also remove the previous customer's name). Comments assuming the job was 'worth it' except for the long handle.

Last edited by cdent; 02-24-2010 at 10:14 AM.
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Old 02-24-2010, 09:51 AM
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I would explain to them all the pros and cons and then if they were not swayed decide for yourself if the design is something I feel comfortable making. Ultimately its your name going on the knife not theirs.
A maker can make 100 great knives but it only takes one poor one to ruin your name. I think having the customer make his or her own cardboard template to actually be able to hold in their hand is a great idea.


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Old 02-24-2010, 10:07 AM
Mike Zima Mike Zima is offline
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I very rarely do custom designs anymore. But back when I did my decision related to several questions being answered.

Is it within my capabilities?

Do I want to make the knife?

When its finished, do I want to put my mark on it? Believe me we have all had those designs sent to us.

Am I going to make any money doing this? Custom designs relate to a lot more labor and time than our standard designs. And after all it's just going to be a one time project unless you want to put it into your product line.

Is the customer going to be happy with it?

Hope this helps with your decision.

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Old 02-24-2010, 12:46 PM
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Ed I had the very situation happen when I was stationed in Sicily, one of the guys I worked with was an Alaskan and he appraoched me with a requst for a four inch hundter with a 6.5 inch handle. Since he was a big guy I figured he wanted a big handle to fit his hand and I tried to talk him into a more resonalbe handle length. He explained that when he field dressed a big moose he was a couple of inches shy when he was working up in the neck of the moose without crowling into the carcus. When he epxlained, I did agree to make the knife with his understanding that there would be possible balance and carring challanges. Since the only differance to my normal knife was dimentions and not processes it was not a problem.

Jim

Last edited by jim poling; 02-24-2010 at 12:49 PM.
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Old 02-24-2010, 12:59 PM
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The questions was purely rhetorical, but here's an example of something that happened with me, and my attitude since.....

I had a situation a few years ago, and the experience taught me to never make the knife, if it doesn't "feel" right.
The request was that the customer wanted a knife with an overly large handle, and insisted on the handle being 6" long. I've been making knives long enough to know that the knife would be out of balance, and that even though the customer THOUGHT that was exactly what he wanted and needed, that he would likely not think so when he received the knife. Well, to my fault I allowed myself to be "smoozed" into making exactly what the customer wanted....my mistake. The customer assured me repeatedly that this was HIS knife, and that he would keep it forever. So, knowing that the knife would not represent something I would normally produce, I tried to please the customer, and built it against my better judgment.
To make a long story short, just what I was afraid would happen, did. About 6 months later I received a phone call....and the gentleman on the other end tells me that he had purchased one of my knives second hand, and that he would like for me to replace the handle because it was "way too large, and way too long." As he described the knife, the red lights were going off in my head, and when I received the knife in the mail, it was the knife with that overly large/long handle, that the original customer just had to have his way, and swore he would keep forever, because it was just what he wanted.
Rather than have an out of balance, and what I considered to be an ugly handled knife floating around, I tore the knife completely down, replaced the guard (had to because of the configuration), trimmed the tang, and replaced the handle.
I learned my lesson.
The customer is NOT always right. A Maker who has made knives for any length of time knows what works, and what doesn't. Most requests that are outside the norm, usually come from individuals who saw this or that, and think is would be "so cool", but have no idea what they are asking for. If a maker tries to talk you out of something in relation to building a knife, you should probably listen. Chances are good that the maker has been around the block, and knows what they are talking about. Would you insist that your mechanic replace a fan belt on your car..with one that is 3" too long, even though he tells you it won't work?? If you think enough of a Maker's work to order a knife from him/her, you should trust that individual's judgment and experience. Most makers will always to their best to look out for the customer.
If someone requests something in a knife that doesn't "feel" right, I turn the order down as nicely as possible, and try to direct them to someone who is less anal than I am.


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Old 02-24-2010, 01:58 PM
Kostoglotov Kostoglotov is offline
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Ed ? Do you have a different standard between form and function?

Would you build an EKB that you personally found garish - say Pink Micarta and scrimshaw inlay of a Chihuahua, but the knife would function no different than any of your other EKB?s?

The above is a pretty extreme example but you can use any other material choice you personally did not care for.
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Old 02-24-2010, 05:31 PM
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B.Finnigan B.Finnigan is offline
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I had a friend request a mid size Bowie type knife with a larger handle. He has gorilla hands and wanted a knife that he could comfortably hang onto while dressing game. I built it and he said it was just what he wanted. He could never find a store bought knife with a comfortable handle.

Since then he has gutted several antelope, elk and deer with the knife. Every time we get on the subject of knives he lets me know how much he likes it. Two of his hunting buddies also wanted one after using his.

To me that is the very antithesis of what a custom knife maker is. A one-of-a-kind does not mean custom, just different from the rest. Building to special requested specs and/or materials is custom.

So I have stumbled into a niche market. I like the challenge of stepping outside the norm and figuring out how to make it happen. And to do it as detailed and stylish as possible.

I would draw the line if performance would be compromised. But balance is not always the main issue. Machetes, ulu's and Exacto knives are hellishly out of balance but work great for what they were intended to do.
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Old 02-24-2010, 06:07 PM
Ed Tipton Ed Tipton is offline
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I used to..and still do occessionally make cue sticks. One common request was for a cue of exceptional length or weight. Cues are remarkably consistant in their dimensions. They are almost always 58 inches long, and between 18 and 21 oz. in weight. There is a reason for this. It works! It was not uncommon to get some short person come into my shop and ask me to make him a cue that was 64" long and 24 oz. weight. I would explain as pleasantly as i could that Wilt Chamberlain or Kareem might be able to benefit from such a cue, but that if anything, I should probably make his cue shorter to accomodate his shorter arm span. If he insisted, then I would politely tell him that it was not within my capeability, and that he should seek assistance elsewhere. I refused to make something that was going to be universally viewed as an abortion.
I would use that same logic in knives, with the understanding that there is much more latitude in the design of knives....but there is a limit!
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Old 02-24-2010, 06:20 PM
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Karl B. Andersen Karl B. Andersen is offline
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This is a really, really good thread, Ed.


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Old 02-24-2010, 07:57 PM
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Kevin:

In my book....Form FOLLOWS Function. I will, and do make "custom" ordered knives, with the caveat that if the Form degrades or interferes with the Function, I reserved the right to make changes to the design. No matter what materials or embellishments I apply to a knife, it must be able to function as a knife, and do so to the best of my abilities.

In the case of what you mentioned, if someone wanted pink handle material, with a scrimshaw inlay of a Chihuahua, AND was willing to pay the money I would ask for it, sure.

However, if that same person asked for those things, but also specified that I make a 2 3/4" bladed EBK, with a 5" long handle....the answer would be a polite "No, but XXXXX MIGHT be willing to build that for you."
Who knows....someone else might just see it and think it was the greatest thing in the world. But if I built it with the standard 2 3/4" blade, and a 5" handle, the knife would be so out of balance and difficult to handle, that anyone who had ever handle one of my knives would wonder why in the world Ed Caffrey had built something so terrible.

The whole point of the exercise is that although a customer might feel certain that they know exactly what they want...many times that's not the case. The customer in my previous post was 100% sure, and said so several times during our phone conversations. I built exactly what he wanted, in the exact way he wanted it, all with the thought in my mind that the end product would be "clunky" and just not right.

I did have a couple more conversations with that individual after the knife had changed hands, and I had rebuilt it. He eventually told me that he did not realize how big the handle on the knife was actually going to be, even though it was built to the dimensions he specified. That's why I say, The customer is not always right.


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Last edited by Ed Caffrey; 02-24-2010 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 02-25-2010, 07:18 AM
Kostoglotov Kostoglotov is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Caffrey View Post
Kevin:

In my book....Form FOLLOWS Function. I will, and do make "custom" ordered knives, with the caveat that if the Form degrades or interferes with the Function, I reserved the right to make changes to the design. No matter what materials or embellishments I apply to a knife, it must be able to function as a knife, and do so to the best of my abilities.

In the case of what you mentioned, if someone wanted pink handle material, with a scrimshaw inlay of a Chihuahua, AND was willing to pay the money I would ask for it, sure.

However, if that same person asked for those things, but also specified that I make a 2 3/4" bladed EBK, with a 5" long handle....the answer would be a polite "No, but XXXXX MIGHT be willing to build that for you."
Who knows....someone else might just see it and think it was the greatest thing in the world. But if I built it with the standard 2 3/4" blade, and a 5" handle, the knife would be so out of balance and difficult to handle, that anyone who had ever handle one of my knives would wonder why in the world Ed Caffrey had built something so terrible.

The whole point of the exercise is that although a customer might feel certain that they know exactly what they want...many times that's not the case. The customer in my previous post was 100% sure, and said so several times during our phone conversations. I built exactly what he wanted, in the exact way he wanted it, all with the thought in my mind that the end product would be "clunky" and just not right.

I did have a couple more conversations with that individual after the knife had changed hands, and I had rebuilt it. He eventually told me that he did not realize how big the handle on the knife was actually going to be, even though it was built to the dimensions he specified. That's why I say, The customer is not always right.

Thanks for the response Ed

I think thats always a difficult issue - the customer thinking they know what they want Vs the reality of what they are proposing.
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Old 02-25-2010, 08:55 AM
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A good thread, Ed. It touches on what many of us struggle with "is this right?". I spend (waste?) a lot of time just staring a designs and materials trying to decide of a knife will be considered proper. If you throw in a customer's opinion, things can get really tough. As a result, so far, I try to follow the advice of other knife makers to guide my decisions.
I have spent many years developing computer software and in almost every case, the customer is way to concerned with the details of the design rather than defining the requirements. Many times I had no choice but to just play along and watch the project turn into crap. I don't play that game anymore.
Why hire a professional and then ignore his advice? In our consumer-based economy the customer is always supposed to be right but I say "ruin somebody else's reputation" I can do that for myself.


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Old 02-25-2010, 11:27 AM
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WOW!
I guess I am the odd ball again.
My slogan is, "where knives are as different as the people who use them".
Everyone is different and that is why we have customs...
A knife made to order is exactly that, one of a kind.
If someone picks it up in the aftermarket, it is still as unique, it simply has a new owner.
Large people need large handles, etc...
UGLY KNIVES???
How can a maker loose reputation for building a knife perfectly?
If they are all to look similar there is no custom to it.

If I get an order for an auto with a 5 inch handle and a 2 inch blade for a spicific purpose, and someone else tells me later it does not suit them (being the new owner), I would tell them to order what THEY want and it will be done. You get what you buy in the aftermarket, someone else's ideas.
FREAK KNIVES are what yall are talking about here.
Freaks love freak knives, conventional people love convetional knives, show-off people have show off knives, plain people love plain knives and so forth.

Let's say I found an Ed Caffrey knife on e bay with an extended handle length and bought it.
I now have the most unique Caffrey original, how is that less?
A Samoan in Hawaii might think this was made for him and pay extra for it.
(Samoans need etra handle length to protect thier extremely large hands)

As a maker, I need to please ONLY ONE customer, mine.
Future owners did not commission my talent, nor did they help design it, why would I let them dictate what my customer wanted originally?
The aftermarket will NEVER dictate what I make custom.

I specialized in taking orders no one else wanted.
I have made some of the worlds most unique knives and do not appologize a bit.
I do not want any to look the same, yet alone all of them....how boring!!!

I did not do inlays untill I got an order to do so.
I did not do filework until it was ordered.
I did not make damascus until it was ordered several times...(folders, daggers, sheaths)

By accepting challenges, we grow.
If all we want to do is "our" thing, then they are handmades, not customs.
A 'custom" knife should be as individual as the user.

Are we making handmade or custom knives? This is the question.

If I order custom boots with bells on the toes, I don't need the bootmaker to tell me that most boots don't have bells on the toes. The bells make mine different period.
It does not matter why I wanted bells on my boots or if any other person in this world shares my desires.
I have a customer up north that has no fingers. He has bought several automatics because I make them for HIM to use. These may be worthless in the aftermarket, but to Scott they are essential for daily use (priceless, he calls them).
Each customer has a need, but know that "thier" customer is not yours.

A maker cannot please everyone, that's why the guy paying the bill is right.
Educate the customer and create something special just for him/her.

The aftermarket is something for the knife manufactures to worry about, I sell my knives once.
This aftermarket will NEVER put a single dollar in my pocket, I am the primary market and "I" govern what. when, where, and for how much... I work.

Handmade knives vs. custom knives, maybe it depends on how do you advertise your work?

I appreciate unique and celebrate it daily.
Just some contrast to think on.
God bless us all, Geno
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