MEMBER ITEMS FOR SALE
Custom Knives | Other Knives | General Items
-------------------------------------------
New Posts | New PhotosAll Photos



Go Back   The Knife Network Forums : Knife Making Discussions > Custom Knife Discussion Boards > Ed Caffrey's Workshop

Ed Caffrey's Workshop Talk to Ed Caffrey ... The Montana Bladesmith! Tips, tricks and more from an ABS Mastersmith.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 07-19-2001, 10:09 PM
J Loose
Guest
 
Posts: n/a

Right on, Primos.

When I was first learning to heat-treat ( and having lots of problems... ) I started looking at the effects of the other alloying elements... much good info found on Terry's site, in fact. I thought about moving to 1084 for the sake of easier heat-treating and then decided to stick to the 1095 and nail my process down hard. That was when I put a thermocouple in the forge and quench mediums with a timer right next to it all.

One series of experiments involved heating the steel too much...1500 - 1550 and higher. This actually caused the steel to only harden along the thin blade edge that cooled quickly and remain unhardened in the thick spine areas. One interesting observation was that -underheating- caused a very similar effect since the thin edge of the blade was often at critical -before- the thicker portions and so when quenched the thin areas again hardened and the thick did not.

I'm in no way stating that 1095 -can't- be hardened in oil, although I think it is more difficult to be consistent. I hope readers remember that I'm talking about a damascus made with 1020 / 1095 and thus with a lower carbon content due to migration. ( Howard Clark states that in experiments he's run after two folds of most steel combinations the carbon content is basically homogenous. )

I think my steel is bitchier due to it having 1095's manganese and a .60 carbon content. But I like 'em difficult... just ask my Girl...
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-20-2001, 06:09 AM
foxcreek
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Oil hardening 1095?


Dont be too hard on Jim Hrisalous JL. I believe what He advise is that you use oil as a first choice as a quench medium IF IT WORKS with your steel and set up. There are so many variables that is impossible to make hard and fast rules about what will work or not; and an oil quench is always easier on the steel, less warping, cracking, etc. 1095 is plenty deep hardening for knife blades to harden in oil with our resorting to water. I think that many folks use too small a container to harden in. This is one factor that is rarely addressed. The newbie would be well advised to get set up with a big container of oil from the start. It would avoid a lot of problems. I'd never try to harden any thing except the very smallest items in less than 10 gallons of oil.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-20-2001, 07:48 AM
J Loose
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Oil hardening 1095?


Foxcreek,

You're right- damascus materials can be all over the place. But when I was using Hrisoulas as a primary learning source I came to conclude that the heat-treating sections weren't thorough enough. In particular the subject of carbon migration in a high / low carbon pattern-welded combination... how it happens, when it happens and the effect it has on the steel and the hardening process.

You're also right about the amount of quench material being critical. I meant to mention that above somewhere when Bob stated that he was quenching in 1 gallon of oil.

Anyway...I'm just sensitive about the issue because I jumped into the business end of this equation head-first. When I needed some questions answered those books caused me some headaches. But I don't blame Hrisoulas, I blame the SBA loan officer that held me up for six months despite a -timely- business plan!

Some people think a knife is just a piece of steel. Seriously...





Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-20-2001, 07:50 AM
Mississippi Long hunter
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Oil hardening 1095?


I would like to ask the makers hardening 1095 in water and brime their methods. I use water or brime very little, only when oil will not work. But knowing how to properly harden in water or brime would come in handy at times.
The day you don't learn something about knife making is a boring day.
B L Howard Long Hunter Forge
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-20-2001, 04:53 PM
Bob Warner
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Oil hardening 1095?


Ok everyone, let me bring this back around a little.

The 1095 that I heat treated got HARD. But it also CRACKED. The crack was my initial concern. How do I heat treat without cracking the steel? If I can't get past the cracking problem the rest does not really matter.

I may have done the heat treating incorrectly, but the steel did get hard (brittle) so at least it went partially OK. If I did not get to critical and got a crack, what will happen when I get it hotter and try again (two cracks)?

I can temper at any temperature under 500 degrees in the kitchen oven for as long as necessary and as many times as necessary, but I need a blade that is in one piece to stick into the oven. Right now I can't get one.

I spent today (I took the day off my "REAL" job to work on this because it is Pi#%ing me off). and made two identical blades. Both were finished to 120 grit and I could see no scratches larger than 120 on either one of them. The steel is 1/8" thick and I barely ground a blade bevel into them to ensure WAY MORE edge than I could possibly need. I brought each one up to non-magnetic and then left in the forge for about 30 more seconds with one and 15 more seconds with the other and let cool to room temp. I did this three times with each blade. I then took each one back up a fourth time and quenched one in water and the other in transmission fluid (didn't get to the Tractor Supply store yet) at 140 degrees.

Both cracked. Almost at the same place as the first knife. In the middle of the blade from the spine towards the edge. Remember I told you my forge gets REAL HOT? Well I know know it will melt steel because I stuck them both into the forge and just let them burn up.

I am now wondering if I got bad steel. Three blades cracking at the same place. Seems kinda fishy to me. I guess I will get a little more 1095 from Admiral this time and see if I can make that work.

Has anyone ever gotten a bad piece of steel that acted like this? I can't think of any other reason for identical cracks.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 07-20-2001, 09:15 PM
foxcreek
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
1095


OK Bob, The only thing I can suggest is that the transmission fluid is still too severe a quench for your particular set up, with that steel. Straight tranny juice is till considered pretty fast. Try stepping back to straight 20 weight all purpose R & O machine oil. You can get it in a five gallon pail at the same tractor supply place. Warm it up before you quench in it, so it is runny and fluid, about 120-140 degrees if you have a candy thermometer you can swipe from the kitchen. 'bet it will work JL you are so right about the Damascus heat treat. That's a whole 'nuther thang. 'seems to me that as a rule of thumb you'd have to harden for the low carbon part of the mix, not the high carbon part. Dont do much of it myself.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 07-21-2001, 08:05 AM
dennis2
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 1095


Bob, we kinda went off on a bunny trail and forgot your problem. Obviously the quench isn't the problem since the blades cracked in both mediums. Too much of a coincidence of the crack in the same place to say the steel is bad. Could there be a stream of oxygen shooting onto the blade ? Inspect your forge and see if there is any place unburned oxygen could be coming in, acting like a jet nozzle. May be able to see it on a piece of steel. A small place on the steel that is brighter than the rest. Even easier, find someone close by and use thier forge, see if it cracks there.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 07-21-2001, 09:08 PM
Bob Warner
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 1095


Thanks dennis2. I will see what I can do on the forge leaks.


Ed,

Where did you go? Do you have any ideas? Have you ever had three blades crack at the same place before? This is driving me nuts.

I've never had a problem that I could not figure out quickly and I am not comfortable being lost like this.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 07-22-2001, 05:59 PM
J Loose
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 1095


Bob,

Sorry we lost you there. I've been in the position myself of feeling lost on a technical prob that puts you behind. It can definitely be unnerving.

I wouldn't be surprised if the forge is part of the problem- when I heat-treat I make sure the forge interior is exactly in the critical temp range so I can soak 5 minutes if I want without any fear of overheating. The D. Fogg is -easy- to build, versatile, and has -great- temp and atomosphere control.

Other than that I can say I do have other factors to consider- but of the two blades I've cracked in recent memory bith were finished to less than 220 and had sharp corners along the spine.

I have heard some Smiths comment on cracks near their Maker's stamp. but not experienced it myself. Don't know if it's relevant or not butif it is it might explain the cracks in the same spot.... just a random thought.

Best of luck-
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 07-22-2001, 06:56 PM
Bob Warner
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 1095


Thanks, Johnathon.

I know it is not my mark as I electroetch later.

A blacksmith friend of mine came over today and we played around with some 1095 he had. He quenched it in water of ambient temperature (103 degrees in Texas today). Not a problem. It got hard and he tempered it with a hot bar pulled from the forge. It bent 90 degrees and sprung back to about 45 degrees. All this was done in MY forge. I copied what he did and had the same results.

Everyone says transmission fluid is too fast but isn't water faster? I know about the steam barrier but my friend stuck the blade in and started swirling it around immediately. He told me us knifemakers make stuff too complicated. It told him that I was just trying to get the best blade I could. He said "EXACTLY," you tried but yours cracked, mine did not. Who's blade is better?

Kinda hard to argue with him on that.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 07-22-2001, 07:59 PM
Ed Caffrey
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
1095 heat treatment


Hi Bob!
I didn't go anywhere, I was just standing by, and watching how this thing bloomed. Your blacksmith friend it correct in that sometimes the K.I.S.S principle is the best method. You hit on something that applies to another post where I was asking about the soft back draw method. Most of the folks who are using the soft back draw, are doing it with some type of torch, whereas this gentleman did it with a hot bar of steel/iron. Do you see the difference between the torch and the pre-heated bar of steel/iron? ( Two different ways of transmitting heat)(conduction and convection) I think I've discovered something here.
Anyway, back to the subject.
I have never had three blade crack on me like you did, but then again, I was disgusted with the predictability of 1095, and moved on to something else. I was hoping that this post would draw a lot of attention and suggestions (which it has), in order to give more options for a solution.
Terry had some good comments when he spoke of going past non-magnetic prior to the quench. That is one of those things that I have become so accustom to doing, that I didn't even think to mention it sooner.
At first I was a bit concerned about the comments Johnothan made in reference to Jim Hrisoulas, but I realized that I did the same thing at one time. One on the universal truths I discovered after all these years is................ in forge work, any printed material, including heat treat manuals are at best a very general set of guidelines to work with. This thread has produced what I have been hoping for ever since the beginning. A place where knowledge is shared and expanded, for the good of everyone. Hopefully with all the information presented in the previous posts, your experimentation to a solution with not have to be a long drawn out affair. THANKS TO ALL FOR A GREAT THREAD!! KEEP IT COMING!
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 07-23-2001, 09:05 AM
Bob Warner
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 1095 heat treatment


Ed,

The use of the steel bar for drawing the spine worked great. You could see the colors just creep up the steel. It was real even due to the amount of the bar heated and the entire spine was heated equally and evenly at the SAME TIME. When the spine was blue and the edge was kinda a gold orange, he just threw it into a bucket of water and started the next one. You do need a pretty big hunk of steel for this so it holds the heat long. We used a 1" square bar about a foot long.

He also showed me another way he does it sometimes. On my propane forge he just held the blade flat (sidways) and blocked off part of the opening to my forge. He kept the edge out of the heat. The forge blew heat out onto the blade and it started changing colors. Again, when it got to the colors he liked he just tossed it into the bucket of water. He said this is a little harder to control so usually does not do it this way but wanted to show me. I got to tell you, living three doors down from a blacksmith is not the worst thing in the world.

I am glad this post has brought so many people together to find a solution to a problem. I have learned from it and I hope others have learned also. I am also sure I will "SREW SOMETHING UP" down the road and we will be having another "Sharing Session." I have been doing this knife thing for a while now but I guess I keep messing around and trying new stuff and that gets me in trouble sometimes. But what the hell, its no fun to do the same thing over and over again. If it was fun, I would make one knife style and only use one steel but that kinda sounds like a production shop to me and I am not interested in that.

I can sympathise with Johnothans comments. Sometimes things don't work like you think they should (obviously, in my case) and it appears others are misleading you. It is hard to sit by and not say something sometimes and it takes guts to challenge the knowledge of a guy with a little title like DOCTOR in front of his name. I admire Johnothan questioning the information. We SHOULD question everything or we will never try anything new and will never get better. Many people may have stated things differently in a similar challenge but each has their own style and I kinda like Johnothans no BS style as it is VERY close to mine. I am sure that Johnothan is challenging the information and not the man.

By the way, I saw an article at www.anvilfire.com/news2/news2002.shtml that said Jim Hrisoulas had an accident with his lawn mower and has injured his eyes. He's had five eye surgeries as of the date of the atricle. I wish him a lot of luck.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 07-23-2001, 10:04 AM
Mike Conner
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 1095 heat treatment


I have followed this topic from the beginning, and even though I have never worked with 1095 it has been very interesting and informative and I have learned much from just reading everyones comments.
This is the kind of thread that makes you think outside of the box and is what the forums should be.
Thanks guys,
Mike
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 07-23-2001, 12:45 PM
J Loose
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 1095 heat treatment


This is the kind of thread I used to see on Swordforums before the Great Crash. SF has never really recovered from the loss and I'm really happy to see serious technical stuff goin' on here at CKD. I've learned a lot and I hope I've shared some of my experience as well... well, at least I hope that sharing some of my experience has been of value...

I do want very much to clarify my brash statements concerning Jim Hrisoulas...

- I could not have gotten started without the invaluable information contained in his writing. -
I had a rather complex problem and when I was starting out I thought I could find all the answers I needed in a book. While I do think there could have been a more thorough treatment of the hardening/ tempering process ( regarding the various factors that go into pattern welded blades ) in "The Pattern Welded Blade," I have since come to understand the complexities involved in doing so.

I just want to make it clear that all of his books are -great- resources and I still use them often for reference. Thinking back to that exact issue of hardening just reminds me of a -very- frustrating period in my fledgling career as a Bladesmith.

I am very sad to hear about his injury- I do owe the man a debt for much of the info he has given us all...
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 07-23-2001, 05:50 PM
TMK1000
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 1095


A useful thread, since about half of my blades are 1095. I have followed with interest the different opinions on 1095, it is really a controversial steel. Being new and igggornat, I used it almost exclusively for a number of months. I settled on 450 draw, and quenched in Brownell's toughquench. Never had a cracked blade. Two ABS master smiths had recommended normalizing the blades 3X, then quench. After reading the exchanges in CKD, I am now doing a single quench on 1095 and triple quench on 5160.

Finding the proper quench temp is still problematic. use of a magnet is almost universally recommended, and i have a strong magnet mounted just a couple inches outside my forge door. However, I have no way to determine how far past critical temp a blade gets at the point I pull it out and check it. While the reason for using the magnet is obvious, it so is the shortcoming. It just takes a second or two for my small blades to heat well past critical. I have been using 1500
Tempilaq on most of my blades as this gives me a clear visual check when the blade reaches 1500 (yes i checked, and 1500 by Tempilaq is nonmagnetic). I think I will continue to use the Tempilaq to confirm critical for the time being.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
blade, forge, forging, knife, knife making, knives


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 

(View-All Members who have read this thread : 30
ARCustomKnives, BCROB, Bemct84, boty100, chall, claymoore, Crapton042, David Eye, defoucault, dmiller, finbarr, Frankallen, GLDOYLE, HBrand, Hound, Hurley, Itchibelli, jank, Kevster, Kostoglotov, LKEK, michaelholden, mike j, MikeT, Naboyle, Phxguy66, racjarrett88, Radar, Robe338, stevesoftail
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:55 PM.




KNIFENETWORK.COM
Copyright © 2000
? CKK Industries, Inc. ? All Rights Reserved
Powered by ...

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
The Knife Network : All Rights Reserved