1084 Help...

[ErnieB]

Evnin' Fellas,

Just got my hands on some 1084 and since its my first dance with it, I was wandering about the HT'ing. (As some of you I'm sure have already figured out, the HT'ing is the part that just scares the bee-jeebers out of me!) Its 1/8" thick and I'm going to make some period-style stuff out of it so I was just wandering... do I need to do the triple normalizing like I do with 5160. As far as the quenching, I guess the vet grade min. oil still works ok?? Seem I've heard that all that is necessary for queching is, after ht'ing to critical w/torch, just dip it straight down into the oil, with a wire attached to the tang to hold it and after the smoke clears, just let it hang in there until the oil cools... As for the hardening, will will a single 400 - 425 degrees for a hour do or should I give it a couple more bakes?

I'm also making up some small knives, fire strikers, vent picks and such out of old files, could you please enlighten me as to the HT'ing processes on these as well. I'm chompin' at the bit to make some of this old period / mountain man - era stuff - not just because it intrigues me, but it has sparked the interest of my 14-yr old son. This is the first time he's really showed any interest in the knife shop so I want to get this stuff figured out for myself so I can keep him involved while he's itchin' to learn. You know how kids are these days, if you get the opportunity to keep them interested in something worthwhile such as our wonderful craft, we've got to strike while the iron's hot (pun intended).

Thanks in advance for comin' thru on this for me as always, guys...

[Shakudo]

steel vent picks? now that is something that will raise more than a few eyebrows at any event.

[Ed Caffrey]

You've got the right idea on the 1084. The only part I would change is the tempering time. Make sure you allow your oven to pre-heat, and level out before you place the item in for tempering. Don't trust the oven setting dial, get yourself an oven thermometer. Let the item bake for TWO (2) hours. I personally do a triple temper on everything, but that's just me.

As for the files, your going to have to experiment to find out what works with them. Each brand of file is a little different (in fact many brands are only case hardened, which makes them worthless for forging into other things) The only brand of file that I am certain ISN"T case hardened are Nicholson files. If the files your using are all good high carbon/tool steel, harden them as you would anything else. (you'll know if their case hardened when you try to quench them and they just won't harden) When it comes to tempering, you'll again have to experiment based on the item you produce from them. Obviously your not going to want screw####### that are super hard, but rather springy. Flint strikers are an art unto themselves.... you get them too hard and they break, you get them too soft and they don't throw a decent spark.
All of this is why a lot of us have gone to using strictly new steel, of a known type. With scrap steel you almost always have to reinvent the wheel each time you heat treat it, because the next pice is always slightly different from the last piece you used. You can eat up a ton of time and effort figuring out how to heat treat every piece of scrap/recycled steel that you use.
Wish I could give you a better answer, but it's nearly impossible when your dealing with scrap/recycled steels.

[ErnieB]

Ed,

Thanks again for your help. The files that I have accumulated to work with so far have all been Nicholsons - I just won't fool with the others. What , in your opinion, would be a good "modern" steel to make this kinda stuff out of? I've noticed on a lot of the period-correct knife makers' websites that 1084 seems to be a common steel among that group. I already have quite a library of notes collected on how to "age" the steel so that's not a problem. I'd like to try some additional items like the cooking tripods, pot hooks, and maybe even some eating utensils. I'm assuming these sorts of things don't require the "Super Steels" we've come to know and love in the modern knife making community, but I don't know what kind of steel I do need to make the stuff. I've tried talking to the folks over on the Mountain-Man / Rendezvous / Re-enactor forums, but they just kinda turn up their collective noses when you even mention using anything to forge something out of other than a 200-yr old horse shoe or some such material.

Thanks for you thoughs and input.

[hammerdownnow]

Ernie, hows about a link to that MM forum?

[Ed Caffrey]

1084 is going to be hard to get on a continuing basis. A couple of years ago, most of the plants that produced it went belly-up. Most of us are using 1080 now a days. For the type of items your making, there's no difference in how you'd heat treat it.

For the other items like tri-pods, etc, just got to your local "steel" outfit and purchase A-36 hot roll. It's what they give you now a days when you go in and ask for "mild steel". You can get it in just about any size under the sun. I call it "crap steel" because it only has one specification..... it must have 36,000 psi tensile strength. Don't try to make knives or anything else that requires hardening. This stuff is made by taking all the left overs from various runs of steel....they dump all the leftovers in one crucible and then make runs of A-36. To finish the projects, just give it a brushing off with a wire brush. The rougher it's finished, the more they like it.

Not to dog them, but I've discovered over the years that most who work mainly in the Mtn. Man circles doing forge work, don't really know a whole lot about steels and forging. Some of them can make nice items, but they are lacking when it comes to heat treating steels. They tend to be tight lipped because they really don't know what to tell you, and don't want to look like tyros if you know more than they do. Again, that's not belittling them, it's just been my observation over the years. I've made a lot of items for that circle of folks, and get contacted on a fairly regular basis by Smiths who work in that area asking about steels and heat treating.

[jdm61]

on mem too soft?y most recent batch of 1080, i triple tempered.....2 hours at 375, 2 at 425 and one at 475 (wanted to see a tiny bit of blue amongst the straw color. haven't testedany of the blades or sharpened them for that matter. am i going in the right direction or will that last temper leave them too soft? i am using the temp gaugeon my new oven which seem to be very accurate. my old ovenwouldhave left blades VERY blue when set at 450 and it cooked food way too fast, so it ran very hot
Joe

[ErnieB]

Ed, I'll get me some 1080 and mess with that for my blades and some A-36 for my other projects. With my son ridin' me hard about rendezvousing with his best friend, I'd feel like a hypocrit not to forge my own camp & fire tools, since I'm trying to be a blacksmith! Besides, the people who make this stuff want an arm and a leg for it...

Hammerdown, as I was saying to Ed, I haven't had much luck getting anything out of the folks on the MM forums, except that you must make everything out of 200-yr old metal you dug up in a barn somewhere... You know - stuff like a horse shoe from George Washington's horse, etc...

Ed, FYI, I finally got all the bends & warps out of that 5160 blade I forged a month or so ago... Your 3-brass pin deal works really well.

Now if the doctor who did my emergency kidney stone removal this past Friday will turn me loose, I'll get back to work in the shop.

[hammerdownnow]

The way I understand it. Some people believe that old steel is the best steel. Old is a relative term. If they are talking old as in from 1900 to sometime in the 50's when a radical change was made in formulas of steel, then yes. That old steel is the best, purest, held to close tolerances that you can find in the common market. After that the tolerances were relaxed, to the dismay of the old timers. In the past 30 years, due to recycling, the ability to keep alloys out of the mix has became impossible and what once was, no longer is, to the dismay of recent timers. Today to get what you want, the best way is to buy from one of the custom steel makers like Crucible. (Ed would know the other names off the top of his head), or make your own.

Identifying scrap is a hobby all on its own. It can be, and is, a satisfying pass time for many people. Sure it takes time and a great deal of study, comparing samples, data keeping, ect., but when little triumphs are made it gives a sense of good detective and researcher work in a field of ones personal interest.
I noticed one time long ago that bed rail angle iron was much tougher than the hacksaw blade I was using to cut it. When I started bladesmithing (hobby) I remembered that and made and tested a blade that worked good for me. I then started asking around as to what the bed rail was made from and no one knew. Finally after 4 years of reading and searching, someone on a thread on using railroad track for an anvil, mentioned that a company had a contract for recycled railroad track and was making it into bed rails! They also stated that railroad track was made from 1070. A friend gave me a small piece of 1070 and the sparks look identical to the samples of bed rail I have. Now is all bedrail made from 1070? I don't know. But do know what I have, and it makes a good knife and is not going to rust away in some land fill or be thrown into a large vat and remelted into car bumpers, oh wait, bumpers are not steel anymore. heehe.

Here is one I use all the time.

[Shakudo]

Ernie, first thing when talking historically correct knives (pre-1820) no one makes them. people want knives that look old,but they will not buy a knife made with historically correct metal. you also need to know what time period you want to be involved with and direct your research to that area and time period. there is a large difference between mountain men and historical reenactors. there are many bladesmiths that know metals and can answers questions, Robert Rossdeutcher,Randy Wolfe, Mike Ameling,etc. you may want to try www.historicaltrekking.com message board as they give free and correct info as you will find on the knifenetwork forums.

[ErnieB]

Shakudo, thanks for the valuable information. I will take your advice and re-direct my research before I get too much further into this type of knife making. I definitely do enjoy these types of knives, tomahawks, and various other accoutrements so it will be worth my while to do the research to make them the correct way. As far as folks not buying them, I really could care less as I want to build them for the satisfaction I will get out of it. If they want something fake, I'll hammer them out something - all they have to do is put down the buck$! BTW, I have ran across the Historical Trekking website and it does have a lot of good info on it.

Hammerdown, I really like that knife you made there... I guess you got me started on another hobbie now - collecting old metals... My wife thanks you in advance...

Later,