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Ed Caffrey's Workshop Talk to Ed Caffrey ... The Montana Bladesmith! Tips, tricks and more from an ABS Mastersmith.

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  #1  
Old 01-03-2002, 04:03 AM
Geoff Keyes
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2 questions, Hawks and nickel


I've got two unrelated questions. Question the first. Has anyone in the forum ever made a smoking hawk? What were the "traditional" methods, (I put that in quotes because I'll bet that if you ask four smiths, you'll get five answers). Were the bowls made of brass or iron or ?. I have offered to help the son of a friend with a senior project and I've never done anything like this.

Question the second. I did up a batch of mild steel and nickel damascus. I had a horrible time with it, bad welds, no welds, the stuff just splattered everywhere. Some of it worked. In a piece of it that I just etched out, it looks like its made of 3 materials. There is the nickel, which resisted the etch, and what I think is the mild, which etched deep and then there is this stuff that etched, but has a crystaline look to it. Anyone seen anything like this before.

Just as an aside, I believe that the nickel welds at a mid-orange heat, when I took it (by accident) up to a yellow heat, it just came apart. The surface cracked and it splattered all over the place, but if I turned down the forge it took a lot of hammer work, even at 90 degrees to the welds, with no complaint. Anyone else had this experience?

Thanks in advance

Geoff
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  #2  
Old 01-03-2002, 02:38 PM
sjaqua
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You didn't say exactly what your alloys are (which would help). Nickel steel can be a pain to weld. Pure nickel will not forge weld to pure nickel. So higher nickel content alloys could give you problems. Also lead in the alloy messes up a weld. "Tooling" steel (not "Tool" steel). is an example of a high lead alloy that will not forge weld at all.


So to answer your second question, without knowing the exact alloys, I can't give you a good answer as to why you had the problems you did.

As to a "smoking hawk", I don't even have a clue as to what that is

Scott B. Jaqua
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  #3  
Old 01-03-2002, 03:08 PM
Geoff Keyes
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The nickel is "pure" nickel, at least that was how it was described, 16 ga. The mild was also 16ga sheet. As far as I know neither were described as free machining, so I don't think lead is an issue.

A smoking hawk is one of those combo peacepipe/tomahawk things. Generally I believe they were more pipe than hawk.

Thanks

Geoff
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  #4  
Old 01-03-2002, 06:31 PM
sjaqua
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ok, so in the proccess of folding and welding your billet. Did you try to weld a section of the nickel, to another section of nickel? (Don't forget that any cleen up grinding between welding courses, may have exposed a nickel layer. Also scale growth and removal may have exposed nickel layers.)

Pure nickel doesn't forge weld to pure nickel. It welds to iron or steel just fine, however.

Most makers that I know use a nickel steel alloy to avoid the nickel to nickel welding issues.

Scott B. Jaqua


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  #5  
Old 01-03-2002, 06:36 PM
Cactusforge
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A smoking hawk is a pipe hawk, check out www.rmjforge.com. thay are the real thing. Gib
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  #6  
Old 01-03-2002, 08:34 PM
Geoff Keyes
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Yeh, it's quite possible that I ended up trying to weld nickel to nickel. I originaly bought the nickel to try some Mokume, but I haven't gotten that far yet. The parts of it that I was able to salvage are pretty dramatic, just a pain to do. Isn't 15n20 a high nickel steel? Are there some others you like?

Gib, thanks for the great site, it was just what I was looking for. And WOW! what a site!

Geoff
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  #7  
Old 01-03-2002, 09:45 PM
Mike Sader
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Geoff, 15n20 is high carbon w/2 % nickel,it will weld back to itself,it is also known I believe as Swedish L-6. I had the same prob. when I first tried making pattern weld.I put a piece of carbon strapping mat. between each section when I cut & re-stacked for layer count. Worked good. Good Luck, Mike Sader
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  #8  
Old 01-03-2002, 11:59 PM
Ed Caffrey
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Hi Geoff!

The pure nickel to itself weld is likely what messed you up. It is a tough one to get right.
If you stacked the nickel up with mild steel, it's also very likely that the differences in the welding ranges played a large role in the welds not taking.
On 15N20......It's basically nothing more than 1075 with 2% nickel, and is more like welding two high carbon steels together than anything. Most of the time when pure nickel is used in a billet, and combined with high carbon, the lower welding temp of the nickel is what "sticks" the whole billet together. The welding temp of the nickel is reached way before the high carbon, which is another reason that nickle/high carbon mixes do not hold together as well with foged on the edges. I'm at the point now were nickel is only added to billets when it will not be on the working edge, or in mosaics, just to enhance patterns.
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