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High-Performance Blades Sharing ideas for getting the most out of our steel.

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  #1  
Old 11-04-2004, 10:18 AM
hookman7 hookman7 is offline
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Question 3 Layer Forged Laminates

I am interested in making a 3 layer forged kitchen knife with a core of either a plain carbon steel like 1095 or 01 tool steel. I would then like to forge weld a layer of stainless steel on the exterior layers. I would appreciate you thoughts about the choices for the steel, thickness of steel and any post grinding heat treatment requirements that may be required.
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  #2  
Old 11-04-2004, 10:57 AM
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mete mete is offline
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It doesn't make much sense to mix stainless steel with carbon steel. Keep it all stainless such as 420 and 440C or all carbon such as 1050 and O1.
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  #3  
Old 11-04-2004, 12:55 PM
fitzo fitzo is offline
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You have not mentioned whether you intend to laminate and then grind or forge the blade, a very important consideration in this discussion. Forging stainless can be done but it is a PITA.

Diffusion welding austentitic (HT-hardenable) stainless steels usually is done inside a sealed can to protect it from oxidation. I have not done it. I have forged plain stainless and won't do it again. Devin Thomas uses 300 series stainless in some of his damascus. It's been reported he does this in a can, also. I believe Jim Hrisoulas's super-flux has been described as able to create stainless welding conditions without the can, but I am not certain. His flux formula also has some important safety considerations because it contains flourine-bearing compounds. With these leads, hopefully you will have some areas for your own research. If you use the search function in this forum you will find some past comments about welding stainless steels.

As for heat treating: carbon steel will harden at significantly lower temps than blade stainlesses. Thus, I would follow the schedule for the carbon steel or you will be overheating it and destroying it's optimal cutting properties and end up with a piece of crap that won't satisfy. The downside of that is you may be reducing the anti-staining properties of the stainless at those temperatures, as you'll essentially be working at stainless normalizing temps.

As an alternative, in agreement with mete, a stainless steel such as Crucible S30V has been reported to have some really wonderful results in use in chef's cutlery.

Good luck with your endeavor. Welcome to the forums.

Last edited by fitzo; 11-04-2004 at 12:58 PM.
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  #4  
Old 11-05-2004, 09:40 AM
hookman7 hookman7 is offline
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Thanks

Thanks for the information.

I got the idea from a brochure I picked up at the Eugene knife show from Murray Carter. In it he mentions laminating "Hitachi white steel #1 with SUS410 stainless mild steel". I thought that was an interesting concept and I am just chasing down the facts.

Thanks for the welcome. The knife forum is a great place to ask and answer questions. It's like having friends stop by the shop, without the coffee.
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Old 11-05-2004, 10:13 AM
fitzo fitzo is offline
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Is there any information in the brochure about whether he is doing the lamination himself in a "home" shop or possibly a collaboration with a factory? I could envision electronically controlled vacuum-furnaces with presses inside, etc.

There have been some interesting laminates coming out of the Kai factory in Japan, lately, so they have either developed some powder technology ala damasteel or have some pretty cool technology to accomplish stainless lamination.

And, yeah, I gotta agree this is a good place for a knifemakers' community. Alex has done good for us.
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  #6  
Old 11-05-2004, 10:30 AM
hookman7 hookman7 is offline
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I think you have answered my question. I need to keep thinking and researching this but it is possible that this steel is coming laminated from a factory in Japan.
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  #7  
Old 11-05-2004, 12:45 PM
fitzo fitzo is offline
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I am gratified if it gave you some material for thought and leads for research, hookman.
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  #8  
Old 11-05-2004, 05:53 PM
Larrin Larrin is offline
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Murray Carter's stainless laminates are factory made.
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  #9  
Old 11-05-2004, 06:33 PM
fitzo fitzo is offline
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Thanks, Larrin, I was waiting for you to read this!!!
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Old 11-05-2004, 06:47 PM
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mete mete is offline
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Fitzo, I recently got two of the Shun kitchen knives ,the agrussell ones with white plastic handle . A VG-10 core and stainless damascus outside .Very nicely made and handle very nicely. Now I'll be carving the turkey with style !! But as they say - don't try to make them at home. Until they try it people don't believe that when you hit stainless with a hammer it laughs at you !
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  #11  
Old 11-05-2004, 11:02 PM
Larrin Larrin is offline
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The laminates that Murray Carter gets have rather thick cores, he forges them down. I don't know what their options are or anything. The Japanese are adamant about keeping their products in Japan, though, so if you wanted to buy anything from them it would be difficult.

The idea of doing the laminates is a good one, but you're going to have to learn to forge weld stainless first.

Last edited by Larrin; 11-05-2004 at 11:12 PM.
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  #12  
Old 11-06-2004, 09:29 AM
fitzo fitzo is offline
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Mete, I have a bad habit of liking to try new factory kitchen knifes. We have a couple of parers in the Shun Classic line, with the stainless laminates/VG10. The goofy looking one called "Alton's Bend" has become a favorite of my wife. They are nicely made, cut well, and I like the edge geometry for kitchen work. I watch way too much Iron Chef, and bought a Shun Professional square-tipped vegetable knife of VG10 with that hollow-ground backside. Ostensibly, it is supposed to keep vegetables from sticking, but it only helps a bit. That knife is so thin and sharp, though, that I use it for many cooking tasks. We rarely cut ourselves with knives in the kitchen, however, both of us have sliced fingertip ends off getting too fancy with that knife. I like the Kai Shun stuff.

We have several of the Kyocera ceramic blades, too. After using them through one cycle to where they need sharpening, I would say they do keep a "kitchen" edge far longer than steel. However, they are a pain to sharpen. I used horizontal diamond wheels. The biggest of the bunch are going to have to be returned for sharpening. All in all, while I like them, I would recommend steel. I am an obsessive knife sharpener and like them razor-sharp always. Knowing it has to be sent off and pay $10 to sharpen tends to make one use them to duller than i prefer.

Thanks, again, Larrin, for your comments. I always enjoy hearing them, since you've grown up with this stuff and have a good insight.
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  #13  
Old 11-06-2004, 10:21 AM
Larrin Larrin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzo
I watch way too much Iron Chef, and bought a Shun Professional square-tipped vegetable knife of VG10 with that hollow-ground backside. Ostensibly, it is supposed to keep vegetables from sticking, but it only helps a bit.
I find that with our damascus kitchen knives, hardly anything sticks to them. I'm no chef, so I don't know if it causes any friction or anything with cutting, but they make great cheese knives.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzo
Thanks, again, Larrin, for your comments. I always enjoy hearing them, since you've grown up with this stuff and have a good insight.
Wow, I have a good insight. Thanks fitzo. I'm glad someone appreciates me.
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  #14  
Old 11-18-2004, 09:11 AM
hookman7 hookman7 is offline
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I was out of town last week and missed out on some of the comments. Thanks to everyone for the help and a special thanks to Larrin for confirming that these laminates are factory made.
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  #15  
Old 11-18-2004, 02:42 PM
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It actually is possible even in a coal forge.

This piece was made by Uli Hennicke:



The black parts are mirrorpolished V2A (Stainless steel, I dont know the american equivalent), V2A is actually not suitable for cutting blades. But he welded it with 3 layers of Damascus (one is the cutting edge as you can see).

He also had a japanese kitchen knife he made with a carbon or Damascus (I'm not sure) middle layer and V2A sides.

But he said it was, as Fitzo already mentioned, a PITA. If I remember correctly he did'nt do it in a can but close welded all open Gaps between the layers. He said it still was pretty difficult. But on both blades the welds seemed solid and also etching didn't bring out any gaps ore unproper welds.

If you want to I can give you his mail adress so you might ask him. I guess he's not making a trade secret of the process.

Marcus
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