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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 08-24-2013, 12:49 AM
claymoore claymoore is offline
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Talking is 154cm supposed to be oil quenched....

or laid on aluminum plate quench. Please if you have used this steel what are YOUR heat treat methods.
Thanks again
Clay
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  #2  
Old 08-24-2013, 06:14 AM
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WynnKnives WynnKnives is offline
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I don't have much experience with 154cm exactly, I use cpm 154. But the basic recipe is foil wrapped blade at 1925-1950f for 20-30 min. Plate quench (I throw some compressed air inbetween the plates at the same time), then some will cryo to get an extra point or two, then temper at 400-450 for (usually) 2 cycles for 2 hours.

As always, the exact method will depend on your equipment and what works for you, but I would say this is standard ball park numbers.

*You CAN oil quench 154, but I don't know why in the world anyone would do that if they could plate quench. With a good foil wrap and plate quench there is NO clean up, no muss no fuss!

Last edited by WynnKnives; 08-24-2013 at 06:19 AM.
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  #3  
Old 08-24-2013, 11:14 AM
claymoore claymoore is offline
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Talking

Thank you Wynn, that is exactly what i thought, until i read from a googled search and the guy said oil quench. I ordered some foil and am gonna give it a try. You like cpm 154 better? Do you have the time to say why you think it's better than 154cm?
Thanks for your time
Clay
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  #4  
Old 08-24-2013, 12:13 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Whenever you consider using a steel for the first time it is always advisable to get the data sheet on that steel from the manufacturer of that steel. The maker of the steel is not guessing about how the steel should be processed and sometimes you will find that several different methods are possible. For instance, on 440C you can plate quench or oil quench or even quench in still air. For 154CM however, oil quenching is the only way to get full conversion in the steel. Here's an excerpt from the Crucible data sheet:


Hardening
Preheat: Heat to 1400?F (760?C) Equalize.
Austenitize: 1900-2000?F (1037-1093?C), hold
time at temperature 30-60 minutes.


Quench: Oil or positive pressure (4 bar minimum)
to below 125?F (50?C), or salt quench to about
1000?F (540?C), then air cool to below 125?
F
(50?C). Salt bath treatment, if practical, will ensure
the maximum attainable toughness for a given
hardening treatment.


Temper: Twice at 400-1200?F (204-650?C)
,
2 hours minimum each time.
Note: As with all martensitic stainless steels, tempering at 800-
1100?F (425-600?C) will result in sensitization which causes
a
minor reduction in both corrosion resistance and toughness.
We recommend that this tempering range be avoided.

--------

There is no mention of air quenching or plate quenching. That doesn't mean the steel won't harden if you use those methods but it does mean that it won't harden completely and properly. Note the mention of salt pots and cryo but not any other methods.

The above entire formula is similar to what I use on S30V. The S30V data sheet does mention air and plate quenching as well as oil, interrupted oil, and salt pots and cryo so for S30V those methods are all acceptable. When I first started with S30V I tried air quench (as I use for 440C) and plate quenching. The steel got hard but blade performance was only average. Then I tried oil, better but still not great. Next was interrupted oil with high pressure air and cryo - now we're cooking! Blade performance improved by a huge margin.

Stainless steels are very complex. If you want to get the most out of them you will probably have to use complex methods. If you don't want to go to the trouble then stick with 440C because it will give acceptable results with simple plate or air quenching and cost less than the more exotic steels...


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  #5  
Old 08-25-2013, 12:38 AM
claymoore claymoore is offline
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Thanks for your time gentlemen. Ray, Wynn, do i need to cryo? Because i'm going to have to study up on that. Is there a poor mans cryo i maybe could try.
Regrads
Clay
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Old 08-25-2013, 07:18 AM
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Don Robinson Don Robinson is offline
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The manufacturer's specs advise oil quenching because they must be ready for any eventuality. Not pieces as thin as a knife. If the workpiece is thick or has sharp corners, it's best to oil quench, but for a knife blade it cools so fast an air or plate quench is fine.

Don't lay the piece on a plate. Place it between two flat plates.

I use 1" thick steel plates.
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Old 08-25-2013, 08:21 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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You don't 'need' cryo but the conversion is more complete if you can add cryo to your process and that results in a better blade (sometimes a little better, sometimes a lot better depending on the steel). There is a poor man's method that uses dry ice and diesel fuel that seems like it works pretty well from what I've read. They say it will get your steel to -100F and that's about the minimum required for effective cryo ...


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Old 08-25-2013, 11:14 AM
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WynnKnives WynnKnives is offline
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Cpm is said to have a little more consistency, whereas you can get a very nice mirror finish on it where 154cm sometimes just doesn't have the consistency.

And while I'll agree with Ray on what he said about specifications, I agree with Don a little more. I find there are alot of "manufacturers specifications" that we as knife makers don't follow because we're making a different product than what their specs are designed for.

On the cryo like Ray said it's not NEEDED just an additional bonus. I kinda see this much like the quench-ant idea, but personally I think if I were to choose one of the two, I would plate quench and cryo over oil quench no cryo... but thats just me, I've been wrong once or twice in my life, don't necessarily like it, but I'm not afraid to learn.

To me one of the other biggest things with stainless steels is to make sure you can hold the blade in the correct temp range without overheating or underheating, and soaking it long enough.
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Old 08-25-2013, 01:02 PM
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Don Robinson Don Robinson is offline
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I've cryo treated all my knives for at least 10 years between 2 blocks of dry ice in a styrofoam icebox overnight.

I usually obtain 1 to 2 extra hardness points, making it necessary to raise the tempering temperature to get it back down to proper working hardness.
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