Randall Bore No. 7: CJ Moore sheaths

[TAH]

Hi Ron,

Another very enjoyable thread. Are there any other noticable differences between Moore and Heiser such as leather quality, leather thickness, thread type, thread thickness, knife fit in sheath, stone fit in pouch, and overall fit and finish especially on the edges of the leather?

Thanks,
Tom

[BoBlade]

Grumpa,

I got some input from the guy who bought the 12-9 with Moore sheath. To paraphrase his comments when comparing the Moore to his Heisers:
1. The thread used was very similar between the two makers.
2. The stitches on top of the Moore are at an angle. This allowed Moore to get longer stitches and secure more leather material than did Heiser with the same number of stitches.
3. The Moore sheath leather pieces were much thicker than Heiser's.
4. Because the "shim" piece of leather around the periphery was thicker, the blade had more "space" and didn't stress the stitching as much when the knife moved.
3. The Moore stitches were inset from the edge quite a bit further than Heiser's were.

Bottom line was that the Moore sheath just seemed to be designed to be more robust.

Crutchtip,

All comments acknowledged with thanks.

Tom,

Thanks! See the 12-9 owner's comments. I think his observations are pretty much dead on. He seems to have a better eye for detail than I.

Best,

Ron

[Sandy Morrissey]

I think that Mr.Moores sheaths were stitched by hand after having had the stitch holes punched with a diamond bladed awl (the cross section, not jewelry). The awl was punched in at an angle in the stitch groove and stitching each stitch in identical fashion gave it the appearance of a zig-zag stitch. The Heiser, Johnson and Gutcher sheaths were all machine stitched due to the amount of sheaths involved. Moore's sheaths are rare as he made far fewer than the later makers due to Randall's production. ---Sandy---

[crutch tip]

Originally Posted by Sandy Morrissey

I think that Mr.Moores sheaths were stitched by hand after having had the stitch holes punched with a diamond bladed awl (the cross section, not jewelry). The awl was punched in at an angle in the stitch groove and stitching each stitch in identical fashion gave it the appearance of a zig-zag stitch. The Heiser, Johnson and Gutcher sheaths were all machine stitched due to the amount of sheaths involved. Moore's sheaths are rare as he made far fewer than the later makers due to Randall's production. ---Sandy---

Sandy, that is an interesting theory but off the mark I am afraid. I suppose it is possible he made a few in the late 30's or early 40's that were hand stitched, but CJ Moore used a machine to sew the sheaths I have seen as well as his harness leather goods. You can clearly see them imprint of the "foot"(?) of the sewing machine along the stitch line on some of his sheaths. Considering the quantity made plus his harness work, hand punching and hand stitching the sheaths is impractical at best. I don't think he could have gotten the consistency his sheaths show if they were done by hand as you describe.

[MtMike]

Originally Posted by crutch tip

I don't think he could have gotten the consistency his sheaths show if they were done by hand as you describe.

Yeah, but we try

Mike

[Sandy Morrissey]

I know that I am rather late in responding to this thread, and I apologize! In reality, the stitch made by Mr. Moore was not intended to be a zig zag of such magnitude. In normal saddle stitching, the stitch hole is made by what is called a "diamond awl". This does not refer to the material but a cross section of the blade itself. This shape helps to punch the holes as it has a cutting effect rather than compression that one would receive from a cylindrical awl point. The stitch holes in the photo seem to be properly placed at a slight angle to the linear stitch line which would give a slight "stagger" to the stitch. The zig zag effect of the stitches shown is due to an error on Mr. Moore, although it might have been intentional. The diamond awl used to punch the holes is much too large which is evident in the gaping stitch holes. This larger awl has, by the fact of its bigger "cut", actually weakened the stitch line rather than strengthened same and does give the "appearance" of more stitches to the inch. The one advantage to this stitching could not increase the strength of the sheath in any material way. The advantage was in the construction of the sheath. The larger holes did make for ease in stitching as there would be very little or no resistance to pulling the harness needles and thread through the hole. This was a considerable factor if one was doing a lot of hand stitching as I am sure Mr. Moore did well and often. If you would look again at the photos of Mr. Moore's and Mr. Heiser's sheaths you can see the large slice in the stitch holes of Mr. Moore's sheath. The diamond shape has been pulled straight when the stitches were pulled tight and the cut is nearly as long as the stitch. Crutchtip mentioned the consistentcy of the stitch and the machine marking of the leather of which I see neither, The machine stitch of the Heiser fashioned sheath is consistent and very little of the leather is cut other than that required for the thread to pass through. Proper hand stitching can be every bit as even as machine stitching but is more time consuming and therefore adds to the cost of the sheath. I am sure that Bo Randall was cost conscious in this matter. I started to make sheaths just shortly after Mr. Moore retired after graduating from a G.I. Bill sponsored saddle making school in Oakland, California in 1947. Many of us old buzzards stitched by hand for years as the price of a good harness stitcher was beyond our reach. I have only been using a stitcher for the past six or seven years and my fingers never forget to say "Thank you!" ----Sandy----

[Moosehead]

Hi Sandy!

Thanks very much for your detailed explanation.

I can appreciate how much skill must be required to do the stitching on a sheath that one has created.

Cheers!

David

P.S. The closest I get to a needle and thread is to sew a button back on a shirt (sometimes it'll fit the hole again afterwards), or crudely repair a torn piece of clothing. Also, I always keep a Band-Aid or two in the sewing kit.

[Sandy Morrissey]

Thank you, David!

[BoBlade]

Hi Sandy,

That's really some great information and much appreciated.

Best,

Ron

[Sandy Morrissey]

Thank you, Ron. I really enjoy reading your bores! Even if they ane NOT boring! ---Sandy---

[BoBlade]

Thanks for the kind words, Sandy. There is another Bore "brewing" and I hope to have it up on Sunday.

Best,

Ron

[crutch tip]

Originally Posted by Sandy Morrissey

Crutchtip mentioned the consistentcy of the stitch and the machine marking of the leather of which I see neither, The machine stitch of the Heiser fashioned sheath is consistent and very little of the leather is cut other than that required for the thread to pass through. Proper hand stitching can be every bit as even as machine stitching but is more time consuming and therefore adds to the cost of the sheath. I am sure that Bo Randall was cost conscious in this matter. ----Sandy----

Sandy -

I didn't say any machine marking was visible on the sheath in question as I haven't seen it in person and in the proper lighting. What I am saying is that quite a few of the Moore sheaths I own and have seen have this mark visible to some degree.

In my opinion, Clarence Moore used a machine to stitch most if not all of the sheaths he made for Randall. I am sitting here looking at 5 of them and all have some evidence of machine stitching. Now I am not saying he didn't sew a few by hand for a special model or somethiing but through extrapolation we come up with evidence to support the machine sewn side of the argument. Gaddis states approximately 5,000 Randall,s were made during the WWII years. If we say CJ Moore made only 20% of those from 1942-44/45, that is 1000 sheaths in a couple of years time. Highly unlikely they were done by hand especially considering his harness work which is how he made his living.

Gaddis states on page 81 that Bo reqested 50 sheaths per month by May of 1943 from Moore. You really think he made those all by hand?

Some examples that I quickly referenced are visible in Hunt's book II. On page 9, the alligator sheath by Moore shows what appears to be the depression of the foot of the sewing machine. Page 55 clearly shows the "footprint" of the machine on the sheath. Same on page 127 and to a lesser degree on page 151. The photos of Bowies on pages 181, 183, and 185 all show evidence of machine sewing.

So, it seems every Moore sheath in the book is machine sewn. I think that speaks for itself.

[2Shot]

Sandy and Ron and Cruchtip,

I am really enjoying this thread, with the knowledge of you three being added! The more I read, the more I appreciate the sheaths that house my Randalls!


Kent

RKS #109

[Sandy Morrissey]

Hi, crutchtip! Oh, I have no doubt that most of Mr. Moore's sheaths were machine sewn. The key word here is "most". The pictured sheath in this thread was not one of them, I am sure. This sheath is the one I was referring to when I mentioned the lack of machine tooling on the leather. I know of no stitcher that cuts a stitch hole similiar to that shown here. I do not find 50 sheaths a month to be a difficult task even if the stitching was done by hand, 150 sheaths, yes ---that would keep one hustling. The Randall sheaths were of rather simple construction as Randall had sheaths in mind when he designed his knives. That can not always be said of so many knifemakers today. Today I cut out 30 small pouch sheaths and 30 independent belt loops, edged them, creased the throats of the sheaths and the belt loops and dyed them. Tomorrow I will sew on the belt loops (by machine) and glue in the welts and seal the interior of the sheaths. In the same time I will be doing other work such as burnishing other sheaths. The following day I will fold the sheaths and finish glueing the sheaths together (contact cement) I will let these cure overnight and on the fourth day I will stitch them up, dress the edges and burnish the edges and on the fifth day I will apply a sealer finish and I am done. 30 sheaths in less than a week! Granted that these knives are small and are all the same pattern so it is almost like an assembly line operation. I do not work full time on leather anymore as I am in my 80's and insist on free time for myself. One must remember that today's work day is considered to be 8 hours. Not so in the 30's, 40's, and 50's for the independent worker. I imagine that as his own employer, Mr Moore's work days were more like 10 or 12 hours and would have a definite bearing on his producton. I have been there and done that, as the saying goes! I can appreciate the research that some writers have done and what they have recorded for posterity. I have no knowledge of their expertise in the fashioning of leather so can not comment on its accuracy. I do know, however, that the Moore knife sheath shown here was definitely hand stitched and was not done with the finesse demanded by some knife makers or collectors in this day and age. One must remember that Moore sheaths were not a "collectable" item for years after they were constructed and the Randall knife became a highly sought after item. The Moore sheath was of commercial grade, functional, and adequate for the job. No moore (pun) no less! ---Sandy---