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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 10-17-2011, 09:32 PM
Pairomedicsfish Pairomedicsfish is offline
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Ok...here goes nothing! First attempt..WIP

Alright, after meeting with Wick.....picking his brain like a zombie at a Buffett and receiving the gift of my first piece of 1084 steel, I have started to get the ball rolling. I cleaned the workbench, and looked around for a way to build a forge.....first, was where to find fire brick. As I looked online at various forge designs, I thought that living in Florida was going to be my downfall( not so many chimneys in Fla!) I labored over eBay and craigslist....then I found a reference to firebrick on some website....it turns out that Cemex is about two three wood drives from m house...if I stand on my roof,mi an see the cement towers.....and they have firebrick.....

Then, I needed a way to set it up....after a tour around the neighborhood yard sales, looking for a metal table, I came home. Here I found a Charbroil Grill. I gutted it and started building.

I built a burner, propane fired, with air induction via a shop vac.


After much tuning and cussing, I had flame......


But try as I might, I just could not get it to run perfect, and achieve proper temps...so, I decided to move ahead and profile my first blade. I had decided on a simple Kiridashi for my first job. I want to make six of these to give to my crew at the fire department, for Christmas. As I got started shaping this first blade, I forgot to take some pics....oops, sorry. Anyway, it was roughed with a side grinder, same tool for the final shaping, then sanded to 400 grit.


This is where I am at.....day one, blade one, total time invested, about five hours, including shop aggravation time dealing with various forced air methods, atmospheric methods and general mucking about......More to come, I am sure. I need to heat treat this blade and start on others......
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  #2  
Old 10-17-2011, 09:41 PM
DLawson DLawson is offline
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Welcome to the Brotherhood! I'm just getting started as well and I feel your pain. Even though I have a few knives under my belt, I seem to "learn lessons" every time I set down at my bench.

As for your gas forge, here's a few things to try. First off, I'm not sure you need the forced air on a small forge. I did good using an old 4" pipe surrounded by firebrick and a weed burner. The pipe equalizes the heat from the weed burner.

I then "upgraded" to a paint can forge that I built from a tutorial I saw on YouTube. It uses Map Gas and a TS8000 Bernzl-o-matic head. It get's my blades heated up very quick.

Another thing I noticed is that it looks like your burner extends into your forge. It shouldn't stick into the forge from everything I've read.

Good luck and keep plugging away, you'll get your first done and the next ones will come easier!
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  #3  
Old 10-17-2011, 10:05 PM
Pairomedicsfish Pairomedicsfish is offline
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Thanks form the input....my burner flange is inside the forge, I could ot get it to burn properly, outside, pushing-in. I will re-visit it tomorrow, when I am fresh minded. I got a great flame when I moved the air flow from the 90 degree tee, to flushing the air in at the back of the gas jet. I will move the flange out of the forge, with the air forced from the jet side and see how it does....
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  #4  
Old 10-17-2011, 10:55 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Go with the blown burner. I have one on a forge that probably has about the same inside volume and it works fine. I can't tell from the picture but you might want to put a needle valve on the gas line for better control of the flame. A ball valve for an emergency cut off is also a good idea just in case something happens that you will want to turn the gas off right now.

Doug


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  #5  
Old 10-17-2011, 11:04 PM
Pairomedicsfish Pairomedicsfish is offline
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Ok. Sounds good.....I will rape another dooo-hickey and put in an inline needle valve. I will stay with the blown flame but move the flange outside of the forge, blowing into it. If this does not work.....I will either go with a charcoal forge for heat treating, or sweet talk Wick......
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  #6  
Old 10-18-2011, 08:12 AM
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Crex Crex is offline
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You newbie guys need to read carefully, not just look, all the safety warnings in all the tutorials/directions/instructions/whatever before you start things up!
You might not get hurt, you might just hurt yourself, or you could be the one that hurts someone else! Maybe your buddy or your child or someone else dear to you. THINK - READ - THINK!
There are several unsafe situations obvious in you photos.
Move the whole forge assembly further away from that flamable pegboard wall!
If you are running straight off a propane tank (BBQ size), you definitely need a quick shut-off valve near the tank (ball valve mentioned above).
Looking at the oxidation coloration on your flange piece and the other piping in your first pic, it appears you used galvanized pipe. You should be using black pipe. The oxidizing of the zinc coating is not only unhealthy for your lungs and is cummulatively detremental to your overall health and anyone nearby.

With forced air (blower) you probably do not need the flange on the end. I would not recommened moving the blown flame outside the forge body, just pull it back to where it is not protruding into the forge chamber.
In a forge chamber of that size, a simple venturi burner will work both more efficiently, quietly, and without all the extra of fans, piping and wire/electricity. It will do anything a blown burner will do if designed correctly.


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  #7  
Old 10-18-2011, 09:40 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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I think it's amazing that you're making this much progress so fast but I also agree with all the safety warnings that have been offered. You need to slow down a bit and get the details right. You're mixing information on blown burners and venturi burners, using galvanized pipe where it can be heated, using a square forge where round would be better, etc. Take a look at my forge pages: http://rayrogers.com/forge2.htm You don't need to do exactly what I did but just look over the general design ideas like a forced air burner just needs a piece of open pipe for an outlet and notice how the fuel is introduced into the airflow rather than the air being added to the fuel flow. We want you to live to finish that knife.

BTW, your blade looks like it already has a decent edge on it and it shouldn't. Even though I realize that isn't the finished edge it still plenty sharp enough to cut you. There shouldn't be anything sharp on that knife until the knife is finished. Sharpening is the very last thing in the knife building process ....


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  #8  
Old 10-18-2011, 11:24 AM
Pairomedicsfish Pairomedicsfish is offline
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The advice here is amazing. Thanks so much, it means a lot to be offered the benefit of everyone's experience. I heeded the safety suggestions. I moved out of the shop, removed the galvanized flange and backed up the tip, to just halfway through the brick.


I only had access to bricks, so rectangular, it has to be for now.....after moving outside, I placed an inline shutoff and fired it up! I did not get a pic of the forge running, I was getting my quench oil ready.....I was able to run at a much higher rate, I still had some trouble with the Venturi pulling enough air, it was a little lean.....I added in a bit of blown support and viola....red hot forge in minutes. Placed my blade in and within five minutes it was red. I heated my oil to 120 and after the blade was non-magnetic I quenched....here is the blade after cleaning...

..it is going into mamas oven! More of that great advice! It is in the oven at temp....



More to follow!

Last edited by Pairomedicsfish; 10-18-2011 at 11:30 AM.
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  #9  
Old 10-18-2011, 12:24 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Getting better! That's a nice low budget job if I ever saw one. I built a gate valve out of press board and even built my own blower just to see if it would work so I appreciate your Rube Goldberg approach to forge building. One question though: how is that hose bib being used? It doesn't appear to be controlling air or fuel - is it just acting as a cap to close off an open line?


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  #10  
Old 10-18-2011, 12:35 PM
Pairomedicsfish Pairomedicsfish is offline
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The hose bib was being used to control air volume.....the airflow was too turbulent so I closed the bib, and applied airflow to the Venturi end.....I was almost afraid that it was going to take off like a rocket. To be truthful, this forge is not all that "goldbergy" ....approximately 1.5 cubic foot, rectangular forge with a side arm Venturi burner using a minor air induction. I just have it temporarily set up, until I find the right place for it....I have been guilty of " paralysis by analysis" in the past and I am dedicated to moving forward on this project.

My first blade should be cool now, after tempering. Time to start cleaning it up!
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  #11  
Old 10-18-2011, 07:08 PM
Pairomedicsfish Pairomedicsfish is offline
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Not sure if I achieved proper hardness on this first blade. Heated to non magnetic, quenched in canola oil, cleaned the blade and tempered at 550f for one hour and repeated.....it seems like a file will grab the metal.
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  #12  
Old 10-18-2011, 08:04 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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A file should grab the metal after temper, much less so before the temper which is when the file test is most useful. Also, never temper simple carbon steels above 500 F. There's a condition called embrittlement that you run into in that range and the steel is much too soft there anyway. With 1084, try 400 F - 425 F and see how that works for you. You will, of course, need to go back and redo the HT before you can temper at a lower figure.

A word on 'non-magnetic' : you want to go a little beyond non-magnetic, about 50 degrees and no more than that. I know, it's a touchy call but that's what practice is for. If you go much beyond that point and then quench things don't work like they should.

And finally, I'll add that whatever hardness you got will probably work well enough with that particular knife since it seems to have almost no edge. Gonna be difficult to really test edge holding on such a small edge, and edge holding is what you're worried about when you are concerned with the blade's hardness, for the most part....


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Last edited by Ray Rogers; 10-18-2011 at 08:14 PM.
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  #13  
Old 10-18-2011, 08:43 PM
Pairomedicsfish Pairomedicsfish is offline
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Thanks Ray, I did temper at too high of a temp. I think on Thursday, when I get home from the fire department, I will re do the HT and temper. Any thoughts on where to pick up a proper thermometer?
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  #14  
Old 10-18-2011, 11:32 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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I got the thermometer that I use in my oven from the grocery. Don't over think it.

Doug


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  #15  
Old 10-19-2011, 05:26 AM
Pairomedicsfish Pairomedicsfish is offline
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Wow, even for high temps like 1500f ? I never would have thought, I will check.it out.
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