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  #1  
Old 05-03-2015, 09:18 AM
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samg samg is offline
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Early RMK sheath belt loop end die differences

I have been studying the differences in the specific shapes of the belt loop ends of these early brown button RMK sheaths to see what the differences were.

I am going to start with the belt loop end of the model 7-5. My focus is on the edge shape, that is attributed to the sheath die shape, not the butterfly stitching, which is manually done, therefore always different. Please focus on the belt loop end shape. The early brown button RMK stamped model 7-5 belt loop ends were a bit different shaped than other models.

My first photo is of a Heiser and a west facing Heiser/HKL. Notice the exact same shape. From the tip, the shape gently curves upward to the main part of the belt loop.



This next photo is of an early RMK brown button east facing stamped
sheath. Notice how the tip is a bit rounder, and it curves up just a bit, then angles straight out to the main belt loop. It is narrower than the ones illustrated in the 1st photo as well.



In this last photo is also of a early brown button 7-5 sheath.



In the 1st photo we see the die shape of the Heiser, in the 2nd photo, we see the die shape of the Johnson.

The 3rd photo, is it shaped more like the Heiser in the top photo or the Johnson in the 2nd photo?

Look closely and tell me what you think.

Thanks, Sam

Last edited by samg; 05-03-2015 at 05:26 PM.
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Old 05-03-2015, 11:29 AM
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The next area that I would like to explore is the hone pocket flap on the front of these early RMK brown button sheaths. These 2 photos are taken from the front of RMK brown button 7-5 sheaths. The same 2 as in my first post. Obvious differences.

The 1st example is from an early west oriented RMK stamped brown button sheath



The 2nd example is from an early east oriented RMK stamped brown button sheath.



Here are pics front and back of both sheaths
The 7-5 east Johnson made




The west facing Heiser/HKL sheath






Both of these sheaths are in unused condition. In some ways I think it "easier" to tell the differences in sheath maker by looking at this hone flap. In this brief time frame of RMK brown button sheaths, as we know the makers had a die for each model sheath, but the hone pockets appear to be the same shape and size, regardless of the model sheath. Is it reasonable to think one hone pocket die, as well? Especially for Johnson who was just getting started.

I have looked at hundreds of pictures of these pockets, and though there are slight variations, the Heiser/HKL IMO appear to be blunted at the end, where the Johnson made flap ends were more pointed. Again, it comes down to the die shape.

Do you think both of these early RMK brown button sheaths were made by the same maker based on these 2 observations? Remember, dies don't change.

Also observe those belt loop end differences in the above photos.

If you have a different opinion let's see them, that's what this research is all about. Please post the entire sheath, front and back for comparison.

Thanks, Sam

Last edited by samg; 05-04-2015 at 03:50 PM.
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Old 05-03-2015, 01:26 PM
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It has been an opinion that when Johnson started making these early RMK brown button sheaths, that he made those exact clones based on the Heiser/RMK's that he took apart to use as a guide. It seems as though Stockman tried the same, but wasn't very successful. I find it hard to believe Johnson would either. Too many subtle details.

Here is the question that mystifies me. If Heiser/HKL made the vast majority those early RMK brown button sheaths from 1959-62, then Johnson started in 1962, was up to speed in 6 months, so by the end of 62 was up to speed, then the baby dot makes its appearance in 1963, then by the numbers wouldn't it be safe to say that Heiser/HKL had to have made conservatively 70-80% of them at least?

Horizontal/west facing RMK stamped sheaths make up the vast majority of the RMK brown button sheaths, the east facing, the minority. Just as the years made by both suggest.

Yet, in all the publications that I have read, all the auctions I have seen, both private and on ebay, if it has a RMK stamp, they call it a Johnson.

That's disturbing to me. It is not possible that can be accurate.
There is nothing that can be done about correcting the past, but lots can be done about correctly identifying them now, and into the future.

This is why I feel that Jacks research, which has been extensive is dead on. And perhaps generally accepted by the collecting community by now. I have not seen a concensus either way on that. Would you please, as a collector let us know where you stand on this subject. There have only been a few to voice their opinion one way or the other.

Thanks, Sam
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Old 05-03-2015, 02:00 PM
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Again, Johnson east stamped brown button hone flaps, pointed



Heiser/HKL hone flap shape, rounded



Different shape, different die, different maker? What do you think?

Thanks, Sam

Last edited by samg; 05-03-2015 at 05:22 PM.
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Old 05-03-2015, 06:01 PM
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Here are the backs of the sheaths posted in my last post.

Johnson RMK brown button sheaths. Notice that the bottom of the belt loop end, once the edge comes out of the bottom it angles out to the main belt loop edge.



Next photo are the Heiser/HKL sample sheaths. Notice how the edge of the belt loop end does a little double curve as it goes out to the main loop edge. It isn't straight like the Johnson belt loop end edge.

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Old 05-04-2015, 08:17 AM
TAH TAH is offline
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Sam,

Your observations, as well as Jack's research, make sense to me. I am very open to learning more and changing my stance, as long as the information stays consistent over a large number of sheaths, which I think it has so far.
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Old 05-04-2015, 09:12 AM
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Thanks Tom
Jacks research was so well thought out and presented, I began noticing those major differences, as well as the more subtle ones.

The hone pocket flap tip can be tricky, especially on a well used sheath, because grabbing and lifting the flap could dull that tip. That's why in my observations above, I had unused sheaths as examples.

Sometimes, on those Heiser/ HKL hone pocket flaps, you will notice that tooled edge (just inside the outer edge) comes to a point at the tip, but the outer edge does not. It is always blunted on those HKL's.

Thanks, Sam

Last edited by samg; 05-04-2015 at 03:47 PM.
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  #8  
Old 05-29-2015, 06:41 AM
Rick Bowles Rick Bowles is offline
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Sam,

Interesting and educational observations but I'm curious if you've researched the "WDR 4" below. I seem to recall seeing that knife or one like it in the past.
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Old 05-31-2015, 05:39 PM
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Hey Rick... this knife was posted in the escutcheon plate line and is very interesting indeed. It is almost certainly 1963 vintage. The brown-button sheath has all the characteristics of Johnson made. Especially interesting is the butterfly stitching with the double line, which is seen on Johnsons baby-dots on occasion through early 1970s. I've speculated that unusual stitching is a signature of a specific sheath maker in Johnson shop... because most Johnsons did not have that double stitch line.

I too would be interested in the history of this "WDR4" etching.











The evidence of a split in brown button sheath into two easily defined groups, and the clearly definitive difference in the characteristics of the Heiser made vs Johnson made is so overwhelming that it is hard to know why it is doubted. I think that when Gary Clinton said he was on board with the ID of the difference, that pretty much indicated the case was pretty iron-clad.

The old adage of "it has a Randall stamp so must be a Johnson" has been thoroughly debunked. So thorough is the case that I am strongly certain that Johnson never made one single "canteen" lift-the-dot snapped sheath.. they were all made by Heiser.

Last edited by Jacknola; 05-31-2015 at 05:43 PM.
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Old 06-01-2015, 06:39 AM
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Hi Rick. I don't know anything specific to this knife. It was used because it was a great example of an early Johnson sheath.

I had an interesting conversation with a man that I tracked down in Colorado who was employed by Heiser HKL for the last 5 years before their closing in 1980.
He didn't make knife sheath, he made saddles. But he gave me much info about the process.
When Heiser closed their doors, they auctioned off all their equipment and dies, and this man wound up with it all. The stitching machines, clickers, dies, all of it.

Much has been discussed about the stitch count being a way to tell the makers HKL and Johnson apart. The machines were adjustable for stitch count, so I don't think that argument will hold water.

Another very interesting fact that I learned from him is that Heiser used hot wax with their stitching machines. They used gas fired wax pots to run the thread thru. He commented that this type of wax process was pretty unique to Heiser because of the volume of work they did. To use hot wax, the machines need to be going most of the time, or the machine would gum up.

He said that he has repaired many saddles, and removing the thread is difficult, and each hole has to be punched to remove the thread.
So, what are the chances that Johnson used a similar hot wax method for his stitching? Are there any visual differences between the two? Under a loup perhaps? Does the hot wax used on the Heiser thread look different than what was used on Johnsons? Can you tell the difference after 50 years? If the wax was hot, did it fill the punched hole differently?

Has anyone any experience repairing, restitching Heiser and Johnson sheaths?

I'm going to look into this myself, hopefully you guys will check yours too.
Any ideas or comments?

Last edited by samg; 06-04-2015 at 08:55 AM.
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