Integrals

I am cutting into my first two integral knives. I am working on 1/2" CPM 420V. Can you enlighten me with any "tricks" to keep the blade straight and even. I intend on just scribing a line and going from there. I want the blade about 3/16" thick. It took an hour on my band saw to cut out the two blades!!

Anything else I should watch for in making these???

FIRST, EITHER BUY A MILLING MACHINE, OR FIND A MACHINIST WHO'LL DO THE MILLING FOR YOU. THAT'S PROBABLY THE BEST "TIP" I CAN GIVE YOU.

FROM PRESENT AND PAST EXPERIENCE, I'LL TELL YOU THIS IS VERY HARD TO DO, BECAUSE:

1) YOU WON'T HAVE ENOUGH WORK FOR THEM TO WANT TO BOTHER WITH.
2) THEY HATE WORKING WITH THESE TYPES OF DIFFICULT-MACHINING STEELS.
3) THEY DON'T HAVE TIME TO MESS WITH LITTLE JOBS (SEE #1 ABOVE).
4) THEY WILL CHARGE A LOT FOR THE COMPUTER/LAY-OUT WORK IN GETTING THINGS PROGRAMMED, INITIALLY. THIS IS A ONE-TIME, UP FRONT COST, HOWEVER. OR, IF THEY DON'T PROGRAM YOUR PROJECT, THEY'LL STILL HAVE TO MAKE JIGS AND TOOLS; SO THERE WILL STILL BE AN INITIAL COST TO GET YOUR WORK READY TO DO. THIS TAKES A LOT OF TIME AND THEY ARE CERTAINLY JUSTIFIED IN THESE CHARGES. LATER WORK, ON MORE OF THE SAME STYLE/PATTERN OF KNIFE BLANK WILL BE LESS, SINCE THIS PRE-WORK IS ALREADY DONE.
5) THEY PROBABLY WILL NOT SAVVY WHAT THE KNIFE HAS TO BE AT THE END OF THEIR JOB, OR IN OTHER WORDS, WILL NOT UNDERSTAND THE RATIONALE BEHIND WHAT YOU ASK THEM TO DO AND WILL HAVE A HARD TIME "MAKING" THE BLANK THE WAY YOU NEED IT TO BE. THIS WILL BE WORKED OUT IN TIME, BUT THEY'LL NEED SOME EDUCATING.
6) I GUESS YOU CAN SAW AND GRIND IT OUT, MAYBE WITH SOME/LOTS OF FILING AND POSSIBLY DISC SANDING, PLATEN WORK, BUT IT'LL BE A ROUGH ROAD TO TRAVEL. I HAVE A BRIDGEORT AND AFTER MACHINING MY FIRST ONE, I'VE BEEN LOOKING FOR SOMEONE WHO'LL DO THE JOB I NEED DONE AT A DECENT PRICE, WITH NO SUCCESS YET. IT TAKES A L-O-N-G TIME, EVEN WITH A MILLING MACHINE! I'M LOOKING MORE AND MORE AT DOING IT MYSELF, HOWEVER, BECAUSE FO THE ABOVE PROBLEMS.

RICARDO VELARDE HAS HAD A LOT MORE EXPERIENCE WITH THIS THAN I HAVE, MAYBE HE, AND ANY OTHERS WHO'D LIKE TO HELP, COULD OFFER SOME ADVICE.

YOU'D PROBABLY WANT TO GET THE MACHINING DONE BEFORE YOU START SAWING IT OUT, THOUGH, IF YOU CHOOSE TO GO THIS ROUTE. THE MACHINIST WOLD FIND IT EASIER TO WORK WITH A RECTANGULAR BLOCK OF STEEL, THAN WITH A "KNIFE-SHAPED" PIECE.

YOU WANT THE CORNERS AT THE FRONT AND BACK OF THE GUARD AND BOLSTERS RADIUSED AND THE FRONT AND BACK EDGESSURFACES OF THE BROM SIDE TO SIDE AND THE TAPER OF THE TANG, SHOULD YOU TAPER IT, TO COME OUT IN THE CENTER OF THE KNIFE AND NOT VEER OFF TO ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER.

BLADE THICKNESS IS A MATTER OF TASTE AND ALSO DEPENDS UPON WHAT KIND OF KNIFE YOU'RE MAKING. A HUNTER COULD BE 1/8" TO 1/4" THICK, A FIGHETR THE SAME, DEPENDING ON YOUR FEELINGS ABOUT WHAT EACH KNIFE OUGHT TO BE.

DRAWING LINES WOULD WORK, BUT YOU'LL HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL TO CUT TO THE SAME DEPTH ON EACH LINE: EITHER JUST BARELY TOUCH IT, OR CUT HALF-WAY THOROUGH IT, ETC., SO THAT THINGS ARE SYMMETRICAL. SYMMETRY IS VERY ESSENTIAL------JUST AS IT IS ON ANY KNIFE, I GUESS.

GOOD LUCK, YOU'VE GOT A WAYS TO GO, BUT THEY'RE WORTH IT WHEN THEY'RE COMPLETED.

ANY SPECIFIC QUESTIONS TO FOLLOW UP ON

I made my first integrals because I got tired of fitting up bolsters and handle scales, ground them out on the belt grinder, boiled a bucket of water for each one. Now I use a small bench top mill and do all my machining in the square before profiling the knife. Carbide tipped end mills are the only way to cut 440C but it still takes a long time.

Here is one that takes a half day to machine.

Thaks, George. That's a beauty!

Good advice. I must admit that I'm fairly new in making this type of knife, so feel free, anyone, to educate me and/or take issue with any of my comments in above post. Those are just my experiences, so far.

Thanks, for the input guys. I had access to a nice end mill and surface grinder back in Michigan. Out here in Northern Nevada I have nothing but what is in my shop.

I guess if I can't find a mill I'll just have to pray my way through it and hope for the best!

The toughest part comes when you realize after the knife is finished that it weighs about 25% of the chunk of material that you started with. There is a lot of waste in integrals.

It just seems to me that without a milling machine, the job would be VERY time consuming and difficult.

Trying to keep things symmetrical would be the hardest part, I'd guess. As you work, it'll work out and you'll find easier and quicker ways of doing it, no matter how you approach it. Look for used mills, they're around.

Go get 'em!

The mills are around, a buddy of mine picked up a digital read-out "J" head Bridgeport for $2,600 at an out of business auction up here in the northeast (Connecticut actually) plus a turntable and collets and a bunch of micrometers, keep your eye's peeled and you might get lucky.

Sir Mondt. I read about the two knives you have started, and it makes me wonder if you want to do this as a fun little project or "Realy" want to get into making this style of knives more seriously.
If you want to make a few and have a great time, just enjoy the challenge and know in advance that it will take a long time to finish.
Do not spend a lot of money.
Get yourself some fresh files and be patient.
Use your grinder as much as you can to get the bulk off and cut down a little on the fileing.
I would hate to see you spending lots of $$$ on a vertical mill etc...., just to have it be for a few knives.
Start with small knives, they will take less time.
Keep the design simple.
You would hate to put a lot of hours on a knife and not have it turn out half way decent.
Some of the reasons why these knives are so expensive are because you have to spend time making a lot of blue prints.
HOpefully you keep in mind more than just one pattern to desing a blank.
Machinists wnat numbers and yes it will be cheaper. To give you an idea, I had some prints done and I took them to a machinist. For the fixtures, programing and milling "ONE" blank was $875.00. For twenty five blanks was $375.00 each and for fifty it was $140.00 each.
You would like to get some desent steel for the knives.
440-c will be about the cheapest metal you could buy. My guess would be about $6.00 per lbs, and you would need 200 lbs. That is another $1200.00 plus shipping.
I guess what I am getting at is that, it is not a simple project and that is why there are so few people that make these kind of knives, and when you make a mistake on one of these knives it is a very expensive one that will ruine your day.
About making them, I use a band saw to cut out the blank and a grinder for the blade . Everything else is done with files, from profileing, shaping etc...
Dietmar Kressler even sharpens the blades with files!!
Good luck and we hope to see a picture of one of your knives later on. I just sent some knives to the photographers and when I get them back I will email the photo to knifemaker Bob Dogget to post when he get some time.

Thank you, Ricardo,

You gave us all a lot more information than I could give and a lot to think about. Just as I knew/hoped you would. Great help.