MEMBER ITEMS FOR SALE
Custom Knives | Other Knives | General Items
-------------------------------------------
New Posts | New PhotosAll Photos



Go Back   The Knife Network Forums : Knife Making Discussions > Custom Knife Discussion Boards > Knife Making Discussions > The Newbies Arena

The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-03-2016, 09:23 PM
WNC Goater WNC Goater is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: NC Mountains
Posts: 469
O-1 question

Maybe this should be in the heat treat forum so if it needs to be moved, mods do your thing.

I've wanted to try some O-1 and got some from NJSB, .110" thick. Just today HT my first blade. Here's what I did.

Soaked for 12 minutes @ 1480?
Quenched in Canola @ 130?
While still hot to the touch but not blistering (probably close to the 130? Canola) I put it in the oven and held at about 435? for 1 hour.
Cooled under hot tap water, yes it sizzled.
Back in the oven for another hour at about the same 435?
Out and laid on an anvil to cool.

This evening I finished grinding, then put on an edge. Not really sharpened. Did the edge deflection test and there was a slight bend using a lot of pressure.

??

Redid the edge then sharpened to just hair shaving. Then I chopped into a piece of hard maple, batoned it cross grain through a 3/4" square of hard oak, drove the tip into maple and twisted out, cut multiple cuts of cardboard...still hair shaving sharp.


Yet still when rolled with considerable pressure against a brass rod, the very fine edge will bend. I mean it is very, very subtle and it takes considerable pressure and it's right on the finest edge.

So I did it again, took it to scary sharp. and pounded, chopped, drove it edge first into maple and twisted it out. Did everything I could to MAKE the edge bend and it's still a razor.

I mean just nasty, wicked sharp.

And so...??? Is O-1 just softer but yet still this tough? (I've been using 1095 and 1084)


__________________
Find me on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/gpopecustomknives/

Gloria In Excelsis Deo!!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-03-2016, 09:50 PM
Ray Rogers's Avatar
Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
Founding Member / Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wauconda, WA
Posts: 9,792
You say it bent but you did not say if it stayed bent when you released the pressure. The ideal is that it will bend and return to straight when the pressure is released without cracking.

Modify your process slightly. Heat to 1200F, hold for 5 minutes, raise to 1475, hold for 10 and quench. Leave it in the oil until it is comfortable to touch, then temper. I temper at 425F but since our ovens are not calibrated together that 10 degrees may not mean much. If your edge stayed bent then lower the temp by 25 degrees. If it rebounded properly then you could try 10 degrees less or just leave it alone.

O1 is insanely tough but it can also get very, very hard. It all depends on what you want from your blade. Toughness and hardness are always a trade off situation for most any steel I can think of ...


__________________

Your question may already have been answered - try the Search button first!






Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-03-2016, 10:26 PM
WNC Goater WNC Goater is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: NC Mountains
Posts: 469
With the edge deflection. Yes it sprang back & no cracking. But right on the fine edge it stayed bent very slightly almost like a bur. It took a magnifier to see. I tried to make it bend pounding, chopping, twisting in hardwood & couldn't. Only when rolled on the rod. I wrapped the handle with paracord with the intent to really test it out for a few days.
But I wonder if I should go ahead and redo the HT.


__________________
Find me on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/gpopecustomknives/

Gloria In Excelsis Deo!!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-03-2016, 10:34 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Now live in Las Cruces NM.
Posts: 1,233
When you tempered it, you should not have run water over it. Your temper oven temperature was fine, but I wouldn't hold 0.110 thick for twelve minutes @ 1480. About 6 minutes after warm up is good for that thickness. My guess is you didn't need such a high temp for the second quench. We always did what it said, one hour per inch of thickness, thus 6 minute soak and we tempered at 450 for almost two hours for 1/4 thick, but no second temper. If it bent and stayed bent then the second temper is why, BUT O1 is very tough and you say only the thinnest part bent? Ray is probably spot on. lower your temper by 25 degrees if you are doing a double temper. A single temper would be about 1 hour at 450 until a nice cardboard tan color. I always waited till it was room temperature too before putting in oven and ground a shiny spot on the tang to see the color.

Now to say something, it sounds like you got a good heat treat for your first time. Took considerable pressure to bend the subtle edge and it didn't crack? Good Job!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-03-2016, 11:07 PM
Ray Rogers's Avatar
Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
Founding Member / Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wauconda, WA
Posts: 9,792
Yes, I had meant to mention that you should skip the part about the water and let the blade cool in still air until hand warm, glad Jim caught that. I also agree that it sounds to me like your HT is fine as it is. You can try out a few degree changes to see what the difference will be but there really isn't anything wrong with what you got....


__________________

Your question may already have been answered - try the Search button first!






Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-04-2016, 08:54 AM
WNC Goater WNC Goater is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: NC Mountains
Posts: 469
Okay I typically DO let it cool between temper cycles with the 1095 steel, and I do 2 hour cycles. I read an O1 HT process somewhere, actually multiples...I think an old post in this forum that popped up on a Google search and that's what I followed. In that (maybe?) and other reading I read a soak between 1450? and 1500? for between 10 - 15 minutes with no mention of steel thickness. Additionally the 2, one hour cycles with a water quench between.

Per usual there are different "processes" and everyone's process is the gospel. Like everything I suppose, "find what works for me", applies.

It is a great time we live in with instant access to information. Problem is there is conflicting information and you can get "information overload". I try to find process multiple people seem to agree on and go with that for a starting point. I hate to ask questions that have been asked a thousand times but I have little success with the forum search function and do better with a google search.

So Ray and Jim I hear you both saying this blade should be just fine but next time either...

1. Ramp the temp up to 1200? for 5 minutes then 1475? for 10 and quench
or...
2. Soak at 1475? for 6 minutes and quench

I would guess both of these work well as both of these obviously you've each found success from.

But then ONE temper at 425? for two hours and air cool. If it's too hard, temper again at slightly higher temperature.

Am I on the right track?

BTW thanks a BUNCH for the help! I really want to concentrate on 1095 and O-1 steels and get good results from both. I'm pretty close on the 1095 I'm reasonably confident.


__________________
Find me on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/gpopecustomknives/

Gloria In Excelsis Deo!!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-04-2016, 09:51 AM
Ray Rogers's Avatar
Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
Founding Member / Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wauconda, WA
Posts: 9,792
The 6 minutes is probably closer to the formula based on the 1" thickness used in the factory specs but I use 10 minutes . It is enough time to cover the thickest blade any normal knife might have and not long enough to cause harm.

I like to temper O1 for one hour, twice. Once will do for simple carbon steels but for alloyed steels twice seems better. For stainless like S30V tempering three times at 2 hours each is common. You could temper 9 or 10 times if you wanted to without harm to the blade but the metallurgist say there is no benefit to using more than three temper cycles...


__________________

Your question may already have been answered - try the Search button first!






Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-04-2016, 11:06 AM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Now live in Las Cruces NM.
Posts: 1,233
You're on the right track

The 1200 normalizing soak is by the book so don't skip that. The book I followed at work was The Machinist Guide to Heat Treating. It's in the machinist handbook. Ray is correct on the double temper, but at work we didn't bother and when I made myself knives I didn't either and HT @ 1490 for 1/4 and 3/16 thick O1 per the one hour per inch rule after allowing three minutes to ramp up. I tempered at 450 dead on as measured by tempil sticks in an old electric stove we had. I would also heat treat 1095 knives with an oxy-acetylene torch with a big rosebud tip. Got nice Hamons doing that without trying.lol
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-04-2016, 08:22 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Now live in Las Cruces NM.
Posts: 1,233
Talking Where to get less expensive O1.

WNC Goater, since you have your own kiln instead of buying expensive precision ground O1 you can get it much cheaper, if PG is what you use. I don't know. You've heard me mention Sheffield Knifemaker Supply here before I'm sure. Anyway they have hot rolled O1 3/16 and 1/4 bar. 3/16 x 1.5 x 36" is $21 and 1/4 is $24.50. Now hot roll will have harder and softer spots in it and it will be covered with scale. Grind off the scale with an angle grinder because scale eats up belts. As for the differences in hard spots and soft spots it's less than half a point. We used it for tooling at my last job and it didn't make any discernable difference and they always bought hot roll. As always for below and above, check and straighten before doing anything to the material and before HT. The O1 cut from sheet will have more warp than the hot rolled bar stock.

Now Sheffield has O1 sheared from sheet 1/8" thick (11 ga. .120-.130)), it's only $16.00 for 1 1/2 x 36". That's almost as cheap as 1095 ($13.00). Now it's just me, but if I had my own kiln I would use O1 a lot more.

Now for a confession, I love O1 as a knife steel. If I didn't use a stainless steel to make a knife I would always use O1 over 1095 at these prices. At RC 59-61 it is just a workhorse and will hold an edge all day. It's easy to sharpen, has great abrasion resistance and has good toughness. At my last job I used O1 and D2 to make knives almost exclusively. Also with 10-11% chrome D2 is practically stainless and those are my favorite knife steels. Even at RC 57-58 it's great.

I don't know if any of this rambling helped Goater, but I'm going to have to come down to your shop near Hendersonville. Need to visit Damon too, up in Kingsport.lol I'll bring some cratex.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-04-2016, 08:51 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
Hall of Famer
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 2,561
Even if you start out with hot rolled with inconsistent hardness in it, which is a revelation to me, by the time you do the heat cycling and hardening all that will be erased. So hot rolled, cold rolled, precision ground it's all going to end up the same.

Doug


__________________
If you're not making mistakes then you're not trying hard enough
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-04-2016, 09:20 PM
WNC Goater WNC Goater is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: NC Mountains
Posts: 469
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmontg View Post
WNC Goater, since you have your own kiln instead of buying expensive precision ground O1 you can get it much cheaper, if PG is what you use. I don't know. You've heard me mention Sheffield Knifemaker Supply here before I'm sure. Anyway they have hot rolled O1 3/16 and 1/4 bar. 3/16 x 1.5 x 36" is $21 and 1/4 is $24.50. Now hot roll will have harder and softer spots in it and it will be covered with scale. Grind off the scale with an angle grinder because scale eats up belts. As for the differences in hard spots and soft spots it's less than half a point. We used it for tooling at my last job and it didn't make any discernable difference and they always bought hot roll. As always for below and above, check and straighten before doing anything to the material and before HT. The O1 cut from sheet will have more warp than the hot rolled bar stock.

Now Sheffield has O1 sheared from sheet 1/8" thick (11 ga. .120-.130)), it's only $16.00 for 1 1/2 x 36". That's almost as cheap as 1095 ($13.00). Now it's just me, but if I had my own kiln I would use O1 a lot more.

Now for a confession, I love O1 as a knife steel. If I didn't use a stainless steel to make a knife I would always use O1 over 1095 at these prices. At RC 59-61 it is just a workhorse and will hold an edge all day. It's easy to sharpen, has great abrasion resistance and has good toughness. At my last job I used O1 and D2 to make knives almost exclusively. Also with 10-11% chrome D2 is practically stainless and those are my favorite knife steels. Even at RC 57-58 it's great.

I don't know if any of this rambling helped Goater, but I'm going to have to come down to your shop near Hendersonville. Need to visit Damon too, up in Kingsport.lol I'll bring some cratex.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lester View Post
Even if you start out with hot rolled with inconsistent hardness in it, which is a revelation to me, by the time you do the heat cycling and hardening all that will be erased. So hot rolled, cold rolled, precision ground it's all going to end up the same.

Doug

Thanks, I'll look into all that. I got the O1 from NJSB. He was out of 1/8" so I got .110 which for the size knives I'm planning to use if for is fine. His price for .110 x 1 1/2" x 36" was about $19 IIRC. It actually measures about 1/8". He offers the option of getting it ground to remove decarb or not. I chose not. I ground this blade with the decarb and plan on leaving the flats as is. Looks kind of forged and the pattern is consistent. I'll post a picture.
I think I'm going to really like this steel and may eventually just give up the 1095 altogether.

I'll check out Sheffield's

Thanks for all the tips


__________________
Find me on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/gpopecustomknives/

Gloria In Excelsis Deo!!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-08-2016, 08:21 AM
WBE WBE is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 483
Running water over the blade between tempers does no harm what so ever, and does nothing more than cool it off. It also helps to convert any retained austenite, and when doing a double temper, it allows the blade to be put right back into the oven. Just what did you think the water does to the steel? That machinists guide might serve better to light your forge, or fire place. I think it was written in the 20's, and much better info has been discovered since. As far as soak time with 01, it is not done in order to get an even heat through out, but to allow time for the alloys to dissolve into an homogenous solution, and disperse evenly. It does not matter the thickness, 01 needs at least 15 minutes of soak time once the oven levels off. For temper heats with 01, 400? to no more than 425?, should produce 59/61 Rc, with 61 being about perfect for the ideal balance between hard and tough. 01 is not like common simple steels, in that tempering any higher than 425?, only lessens the abrasion resistance and edge retention, with very little measurable change in toughness.

Last edited by WBE; 08-08-2016 at 08:26 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-08-2016, 11:38 AM
samuraistuart samuraistuart is offline
Steel Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: San Antonio Texas
Posts: 163
RA is converted to un-tempered martensite during tempers (above 400f). Quenching after the temper is merely a convenience thing, and does nothing metallurgical.

I heard one gentleman (not a metallurgist) say, "quenching in water after tempering helps to prevent unwanted precipitates". I have found zero data to support this.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-08-2016, 01:34 PM
WBE WBE is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 483
Depends on who you read, but at the very least, the water quenching in between tempers does absolutely no harm.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-10-2016, 01:42 AM
Bob Hatfield Bob Hatfield is offline
Steel Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Northern CA.
Posts: 108
I have been making some tactical knives for our local police dept. SWAT team out of 0-1. I normally use D-2 and S30V for my hunting knives. I harden the 0-1 at 1500 degrees for 15 minutes in a digital controlled kiln and quench in Brownell's "Tough quench" oil that has been heated to 125-135 degrees.
Then into a toaster oven at 375-400 degrees for one hour until my kiln cools down. Out of the toaster oven and allowed to cool to room temp then into the kiln for a 2 hour temper at 400 degrees. I use a separate temp gauge in the toaster oven to verify the correct temperature.
Out of the last 10 knives I am getting a reading on my hardness tester of 59-60 RC with the majority dead on at 60 RC.
Do not swirl the knife in the oil as I did on one knife and got a warp in the blade where it had been hollow ground to about 40 thousands. By not swirling the other knives in the oil, they came out with no warps and straight as they should be.
I finish the knives with removable linen micarta handle scales and give the steel a baked on coat of Brownell's Gun Kote for rust resistance. Having removable handle scales allows me to refinish the knife in the future with a new coat of Gun Kote and bake at 300 degrees if needed.


__________________
RELH
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
1084, 1095, anvil, art, bee, blade, brass, edge, grinding, handle, heat, heat treat, hot, knife, knives, make, maple, o-1, paracord, rod, steel, tap, temper, toughness, trade


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Gemstone Question and Finishing Question Fiferguy The Newbies Arena 4 08-13-2002 10:26 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:37 PM.




KNIFENETWORK.COM
Copyright © 2000
? CKK Industries, Inc. ? All Rights Reserved
Powered by ...

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
The Knife Network : All Rights Reserved