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Ed Caffrey's Workshop Talk to Ed Caffrey ... The Montana Bladesmith! Tips, tricks and more from an ABS Mastersmith.

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  #1  
Old 11-08-2010, 09:04 PM
10es& 10es& is offline
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Selling a mistake?

I have a new problem that I could use some input on.

During the final assembly of this knife, dripping with epoxy, I cracked one of the lignum vitae scales next to the lanyard hole .

At this point I was not going to start over...So now I am not sure if I should try to sell this knife with a known defect at a discount and hope it does not affect my reputation, or give it to friend, or ask full price??? Of course I would point this defect out to anyone considering purchasing it.

Thanks for your help

Brett
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  #2  
Old 11-08-2010, 10:09 PM
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Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
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I often have "mistakes" laying around the shop when someone walks in... some of the mistakes/errors are obvious, and others are not something that can be seen. Often a person will pick up one of those "mistakes" and ask..."Is this for sale?" The answer is ALWAYS "No." (and then I explain what the issue is). In many cases the individual will ask to purchase it for a reduced price, or something like that.....the answer is still NO.

Others can do whatever they like, but the standing rule in my shop is that if it's not absolutely the best work I can do, it does not leave the shop. My reason? There are a lot of things that can be taken from you in this life, but your personal integrity is something that nobody can take...you have to be willing to give it away. Another reason is....it can take a person YEARS to build a good reputation, and allowing one sub-standard piece out of your shop can destroy that reputation.

I can remember when I achieved my ABS Mastersmith rating. At the time I thought "Whew! Now I can relax and take it easy for a while." After a little thought I realized that idea was wrong...I had set a certain standard for my knives, and each piece that I built from that point on would have to meet or exceed that standard.

The one thing that caught my attention in your post was...
Quote:
At this point I was not going to start over
Although it's tough to swallow, I would. Tear those scales off and put new ones on. Whether mistakes occur because of errors in our processes, unknown faults in materials, or mistakes in our methods, they still represent a flaw that could have been corrected. If you sell that piece, and it does harm your reputation, it won't be for the flaw itself, it will be because people will say... "That could have been repaired, but the maker didn't take the time or effort." Even if you did sell it at a reduced price, that will make no difference. People will not remember or care that the knife was sold for a reduced price. They will only see the flaw(s).
If it helps any, we all have done the same thing. I once finished a high end damascus bowie with an ivory handle.....within an hour of finishing the knife, the ivory handle cracked. Not only did it cost me $400 worth of ivory for the cracked handle, but I then had to go out and buy more ivory, tear the knife down, and create a new handle. 3 days of work and $400 worth of handle material shot! 4 more days of work and another $400 worth of ivory later I had the knife competed without a cracked handle, and although I lost my butt on that order, the client was very happy, and has since purchased 3 additional high end knives. I could have offered the client that knife with a cracked handle at a reduced price, but he likely would have not wanted it, and it's even more likely that his opinion of me as a knifemaker would have been bad, and he undoubtedly would have never considered ordering another knife from me.

In the end, you're going to have to do what you feel is best. My opinion is that if it's not right, then you either make it right, or it doesn't leave the shop.


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Old 11-08-2010, 10:45 PM
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Thank you Ed.

Your post was exactly what I didn?t want to but need to hear.

I have been fortunate enough to sell all of my knives through word-of-mouth and potentially ruining that reputation over $10 of wood is definitely not worth it.

I guess it was more of pride thing for me, it takes me a long time to finish a knife and the thought of ?throwing away? that work is hard to swallow. Now I can clearly see it is the only choice.

Thanks again for helping me see the bigger picture.

Brett
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Old 11-09-2010, 08:54 AM
Erik Fritz Erik Fritz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10es& View Post
Thank you Ed.

Your post was exactly what I didn?t want to but need to hear.

I have been fortunate enough to sell all of my knives through word-of-mouth and potentially ruining that reputation over $10 of wood is definitely not worth it.

I guess it was more of pride thing for me, it takes me a long time to finish a knife and the thought of ?throwing away? that work is hard to swallow. Now I can clearly see it is the only choice.

Thanks again for helping me see the bigger picture.

Brett
Don't worry as you progress it gets easier to "throw away" and start over. Or at least it seems to.
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Old 11-10-2010, 11:13 AM
Jim T Jim T is offline
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Yeah, making a knife that isn't up to your standards or expectations can be frustrating and expensive, but consider it the cost of learning. Any good education costs time and money and, with knifemaking, you're often learning through trial and error.

I've had to start over more than once. I've also made such a mess out of a couple of knives that they were beyond salvaging, in my opinion.

If I'm not satisfied with a knife I've made, I won't even give it away. I keep those in a "lesson learned" drawer and look at them from time to time to remind myself how not to do something.

Jim
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Old 11-19-2010, 01:48 AM
Cameron House Cameron House is offline
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How did you crack the scale? Hole to tight? I have made many errors also. Good time to ask for any tips to make it easier to insert thonghole tubing so we can all benefit from the answer. I have cracked a piece of wood or two and also some jigged bone while trying to repair old folding knives.
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Old 11-19-2010, 08:00 AM
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Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
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Looking at the pic, I can surmise that the hole for the thong liner was likely drilled with the same size bit as the tubing (likely 1/4" bit, with 1/4" tube)....and I also surmise that the tube was "driven" in from the opposite side that the check occurred on. the outside edge of the tube caught on the wood and caused a small chunk to pop out.

The solution is to always drill holes, for both pins and thong hole liners a tad larger than the actual pin or tubing size. Here's a list that I keep near my drill presses for hole/pin sizes:

1/16" pin = #52 bit
3/32" pin = #41 bit
1/8" pin = #30 bit

1/4" thong hole liner= 6.4 or 6.5mm (depending on the handle material)

Something that many newer makers do not realize is that while bolts and screws are built under size to fit specific holes (for example a 1/4" hole is .250", and a 1/4" bolt is actually .245", so it will fit INTO a 1/4" hole)
Pins and thong hole tubing are the actual size they are listed as, which mean they will not fit into the same size hole..... for example, 1/8" pin stock is .125" in diameter, and a 1/8" bit will drill a .125" hole....they are both the same size, and the pin will not fit into the hole.

It's very often that "Little" things like that make huge differences when building a knife. Most of the time learning comes via hard experience, and I'm sure that most of us have done many similar things during our knifemaking careers.


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  #8  
Old 11-20-2010, 11:14 AM
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Cameron,

The scale warped after sitting on the bench for a week. It looked like a canoe when sitting on a flat surface, the center of the piece touching the table and the two ends were bowed up about .020?.
The lanyard hole was a nice slip fit, that is it would (before the piece warped) guide smoothly between the two scaled. It was not snug just a nice slip fit.
In the tang I had a interference fit. The tube was .250 and the hole was reamed to .250, this gives a nice interference that can still be removed but will stay in place during assembly.
So, here is where it all went wrong. I knew the scale was warped but I thought with three Corby bolts, glue and clamps that it would straighten-out. I applied the glue and pushed the scales on the lanyard pin, started to engage the threads on the Corbys? and use a clamp to make the scale flat and thats when I heard the tiny little ?pop?.

Quote:
The solution is to always drill holes, for both pins and thong hole liners a tad larger than the actual pin or tubing size. Here's a list that I keep near my drill presses for hole/pin sizes:

1/16" pin = #52 bit
3/32" pin = #41 bit
1/8" pin = #30 bit

1/4" thong hole liner= 6.4 or 6.5mm (depending on the handle material)

Something that many newer makers do not realize is that while bolts and screws are built under size to fit specific holes (for example a 1/4" hole is .250", and a 1/4" bolt is actually .245", so it will fit INTO a 1/4" hole)
Pins and thong hole tubing are the actual size they are listed as, which mean they will not fit into the same size hole..... for example, 1/8" pin stock is .125" in diameter, and a 1/8" bit will drill a .125" hole....they are both the same size, and the pin will not fit into the hole.


Ed, I am glad you brought this up. It has taken me awhile to acquire all of the drills, reamers, and taps that are needed for making knives. I had a set of fraction, letter, number drills , and now I am currently working on all of the metrics. It could get expensive but it really makes a job more enjoyable when you have the right tool for the application like the examples you posted.
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  #9  
Old 11-20-2010, 05:06 PM
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The scales were difficult to remove but I think my tears help loosen the epoxy
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  #10  
Old 11-20-2010, 05:44 PM
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Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
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Good on ya!!! Even though it was painful, it was a good thing! Just remember...it's wasn't really a mistake....but rather an opportunity to excel!!


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  #11  
Old 11-20-2010, 10:35 PM
Cameron House Cameron House is offline
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Be sure to post up a pic of the knife with the new scales. That blade has a good looking finish.
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