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  #46  
Old 07-20-2017, 06:59 AM
crutchtip crutchtip is offline
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I am not denying nor denigrating anything Jack. I have absolutely no idea what you or Ron mean by a sheath discovery. To be frank, I don't know of anyone that does.

You ran down a list of subject matter in an earlier post of items you claimed "created understanding about many things never before addressed by RMK collectors" Relatively speaking, you have not been "collecting" very long so that is a bold statement and somewhat denigrates and denies the contributions of some pretty seasoned collectors that preceded your involvement in the hobby.

The following statement is absolutely true: there are two types of guitarists, before Jimi Hendrix and after Jimi Hendrix. In your mind there are two types of Randall collectors, before Jack and after Jack. I can say with utmost certainty you are not the Jimi Hendrix of RMK collecting. That is the shame Jack. You have the ability and apparently the time to invest, but your ego won't let you look at it without being "right". That is what drives you.

I don't believe those items you listed were never before addressed, many of us have been doing the a long time and I assure you they have been discussed at some level, but that doesn't mean any new discussion is pointless or additional information can't come to light. Too be frank, it is a very small audience here and most discussion would be better served on the other forum to a larger audience, but again, it is not my say.

I have been wrong a ton? I must be wrong always, because I don't offer much generally, and only if it helps. Like the Compton knife, I am reasonably certain when it was made. You can do your mental gymnastics about it if you wish, debate it for another month or two, but I offered my assistance and apparently you aren't interested. I would caution you though, if you are going to "publish" an article, practice due diligence. So you are free to think I am right, wrong, or indifferent. It doesn't matter to me.

What I have gleaned from this last post of yours Jack is you seem to be large and in charge on this forum and apparently my participation threatens your following, your standing with the 10 people that read it. This is your turf so I better not intrude. I will say this for the last time, while it seems to be a competition for you, it is not for me. I pray I never get that bored.

Last edited by crutchtip; 07-20-2017 at 07:04 AM.
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  #47  
Old 07-20-2017, 03:03 PM
jeepster jeepster is offline
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I was really thrilled when Joe started posting here. When he did, this forum had the two best authorities on Randall Made Knives in the entire freaking world! IMO. Ron and Joe. Hands down more knowledge between these two than any others around. I was really disappointed when Ron and Joe started discussing the Compton Knife and had a few differences. I have a lot of respect for both of these guys....we go way, way back. But Jack because Joe doesn't agree necessarily with you in regards to sheaths that is no reason to suggest he leave the forum. If you run Joe off from this forum then you poop in your chili. That's like informing the number one rocket scientist in the world that NASA doesn't need him.
Over.
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  #48  
Old 07-20-2017, 05:41 PM
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cut_n_run cut_n_run is offline
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Hey, Joe, please DON'T GO! This forum NEEDS you. WE need you!
-Steve
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  #49  
Old 07-20-2017, 11:17 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepster View Post
I was really thrilled when Joe started posting here. When he did, this forum had the two best authorities on Randall Made Knives in the entire freaking world! IMO. Ron and Joe. Hands down more knowledge between these two than any others around. I was really disappointed when Ron and Joe started discussing the Compton Knife and had a few differences. I have a lot of respect for both of these guys....we go way, way back. But Jack because Joe doesn't agree necessarily with you in regards to sheaths that is no reason to suggest he leave the forum. If you run Joe off from this forum then you poop in your chili. That's like informing the number one rocket scientist in the world that NASA doesn't need him.
Over.
Please re-read the post. I said quit this line, not quit the board. It is/was dedicated to Gen Hal Moore and it has wandered a long way from the intent.

I am not a moderator and I wouldn't tell anyone to leave off posting. Besides, Joe is no snowflake, he can take care of himself, and all of you and Ron post on the other board. It isn't like you lose access to Joe or his thoughts. Heck, I read them too. The difference is we discuss vintage Randalls a LOT more on this board... it seems to be what the core group is interested in and that happens to be Joe's focus. His contribution is welcome to me like in the white-Tenite line. I like vintage knives almost exclusively too.

Joe has recently began using terms like "HKL" for Heiser sheaths stamped with a Randall stamp. "HKL" is Heiser, same people, same factory just different sheath stamp. That fact was proved by our analysis and ways were also proved to differentiate between brown button Heisers/Randall Stamp (HKL) and Johnson brown buttons. Before our analysis, Joe was adamant that any Randall stamp on a sheath made the sheath a Johnson. But so was everyone else too... It shouldn't be hard to say "nice data discovery."

But, back to General Moore's knife. Just for a test, before I explain my thoughts, would anyone like to analyze reasons Col. Moore's pictured knife sheath likely does NOT have baby-dot buttons, but probably has brown buttons?... and if it does have plated, non-brown buttons, we should be able to date it almost exactly? I'm also leaning toward model 2 rather than 1. Hope to get some more close-ups.






Last edited by Jacknola; 07-20-2017 at 11:52 PM.
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  #50  
Old 07-21-2017, 12:27 AM
jeepster jeepster is offline
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I think it's a brown button sheath too. To me it is simple....it looks like a Heiser Brown Button Sheath with a wide throat and other Heiser features....now tell me why I'm wrong.
I believe and I could be wrong but I think I remember if you go waaaaayyyyy back Joe wasn't sold on all brown Button Sheaths being only Johnson Sheaths. I believe he discussed that in some of his essays long ago on a far away planet. Btw did Moore ever use brown buttons? The stone pouch flap sort of looks like a Moore made flap. I just don't remember if Moore ever had access to the brown buttons.

Last edited by jeepster; 07-21-2017 at 12:30 AM.
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  #51  
Old 07-21-2017, 06:19 AM
crutchtip crutchtip is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepster View Post
I think it's a brown button sheath too. To me it is simple....it looks like a Heiser Brown Button Sheath with a wide throat and other Heiser features....now tell me why I'm wrong.
I believe and I could be wrong but I think I remember if you go waaaaayyyyy back Joe wasn't sold on all brown Button Sheaths being only Johnson Sheaths. I believe he discussed that in some of his essays long ago on a far away planet. Btw did Moore ever use brown buttons? The stone pouch flap sort of looks like a Moore made flap. I just don't remember if Moore ever had access to the brown buttons.
Thanks Ronnie. Apparently you comprehend what you read.

That was the whole point. Some of us had thought it for years against what most folks still reference as a Johnson. Beyond historical accuracy, it didn't affect the Randall market and still doesn't. Don't know what all the fuss is about.

Yes, Moore did use brown buttons. It is difficult to fully ascertain with the photos, but it does resemble a Moore style stone pouch flap. Appear to be brown buttons also.
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  #52  
Old 07-21-2017, 09:26 AM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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Here are my thoughts.

(1) this is an "A" sheath with a horizontal throat keeper. Few such sheaths were made by Johnson. Since most Heiser "As" with horizontal throat keeper had brown buttons, voila.

(2) there were two short periods that Heiser apparently ran out of brown buttons (the shop also must have run out also). One was early '50s... the second was about 59-60 (have dates somewhere). There were a variety of plain buttons used for a short period...so if the sheath has plated buttons, that combined with the spacers would almost exactly date the package.

(3) the flap on this sheath is not appear to be a wide flap a la early '50s Heisers. The stone pocket doesn't appear to be elongated. Hard to tell if stone flap is Moore or narrower '40s Heiser but the commando shaped handle perhaps makes it more likely to be Heiser because that shape handle was introduced in late '40s (Joe? Ron?) after Heiser had taken over the bulk of routine sheath supply.

Conclusion - commando shaped handle, type "A" sheath, narrow stone flap, wider throat., medium spacers combined to make my estimate a late 40s bro3n button Heiser package. The package would be unusual as the spacer-wooden (?) handle (pinned?) combo was probably not common either. But there is a possibility the sheath could be as late as 1962... see this example currently on E-bay.



In this package it is an "A" Heiser sheath, 1959-1963 with a horizontal keeper. But the knife has the wider ricasso and more modest cholls that were phased in about 1962-63. If the package is original, then whole knife-sheath is probably 1962... However that is an academic observation because the spacers for Col. Moore's knife make it unlikely to be late-'50s, early-'60s.

This is where the personal narrative becomes a part of the investigation. Westmoreland, Moore, military records, presentation details, etc. and the family lore point to the possibility of this being an early carry knife... late '40s, possibly General Westmoreland's.

I hope to find another close up of Col. Moore, perhaps from LTC Steve. It is an interesting case. Ciao.

Here is an example sheath/knife from Mitchell Harrisons board that has spacers and possibly similar sheath, though it is m-1 and may be middle '50s...just as an example.


Last edited by Jacknola; 07-21-2017 at 12:37 PM.
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  #53  
Old 07-21-2017, 09:56 AM
crutchtip crutchtip is offline
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Hopefully we are back on track.

I can't tell if it is riveted. If it is, definitely a 40's sheath, possibly into 1950 - unless a Moore. The thing is the stone pouch flap does appear to be narrow, so that would eliminate the early time period.

The appearance of the spacers is difficult to pin down. What they look like in the photo may not be what they are, just not clear enough.

What appears to be a wider throat would seem to indicate earlier.

Most telling is the lack of a butt cap. It is not stag or ivory, and so it would have to be wood or micarta.

I don't know if the shop ran out of brown buttons also, perhaps it they used the same snap Heiser did to maintain some continuity to a certain degree until bb stock was replenished at Heiser. Not always though because you do see an occasional sheath with both the metal and a brown button, generally on the keeper.

From what is available, and what we can see, narrow flap, no buttcap, I am gonna go later 50's to early 60's time frame.

As a footnote, this knife/sheath could be from the same time period:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Randall-Knif...53.m1438.l2649

Last edited by crutchtip; 07-21-2017 at 09:59 AM.
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  #54  
Old 07-21-2017, 10:09 AM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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Dang Joe... great minds think alike re: example from E-bay.

I would pick earlier... imagining how a knife in the 1959-62 period ended up in Vietnam in General Westmoreland's hands for a presentation to Col. Moore in 1965 would seem to be less likely then the scenario of a late '40s early 50s acquisition carried to Vietnam for sentimental and heritage reasons. By the 1960s Westmoreland was a Lt. General, super of West Point. Acquiring a combat blade then would be less likely then having one in late 40s, when he was still junior and a field officer. He didn't report to Vietnam until about Jan. 1965and had blade to present that November. But that is all deduction, not fact.

One other point...Col. Moore's RMK has been heavily used so is probably not a new presentation knife. I deduce that by the stretched, sagging keeper and general wear. It appears that sheath has been in the elements a lot...though field service in Vietnam would age things rapidly.

Maybe I can get a clearer picture. Here is something I've been thinking about and Joe mentioned concerning throat rivets ... from Big Jim long ago... probably different snaps though..



Heck - I'll add this wooden pinned handle from Ronnie.. different spacers though.



Adding this picture. This is a beautifully clear shot of Col Moore receiving his DS after June 1, 1966. From contemporaneous pictures he has his Randall on and from this angle it would be a slam dunk view ... if the picture were full length. I hope to find this somewhere.



Dang, I'm getting a dose of PTSD looking at all these Vietnam pictures. Shutting it down for a while...

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-21-2017 at 01:28 PM.
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  #55  
Old Yesterday, 09:46 AM
BoBlade BoBlade is offline
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Nice to see us back on track. Just a couple of off-the-wall observations:

1. The handle looks like it may have black tape on it. If so, it may have a butt cap.

2. The stone pocket flap almost seems to have a "pull tab" on it like some very early Heiser or Southern Saddlery sheaths.
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  #56  
Old Yesterday, 10:37 AM
crutchtip crutchtip is offline
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Tape or reflection/glare?

Southern Saddlery I don't think made #2 sheaths that I can recall. I think that is one reason why many of the WWII model 2's are in Moore sheaths. Even after Hesier was up to speed, you don't have as many 2's in those. Now that I am thinking about it, I don't think I have seen a 7" #2 in a Heiser sheath, only a couple of 8".

If you recall Ron, you got a WWII 7" model 2 in a SS sheath from me years ago and at the time we both thought that kinda odd. Now we know it isn't, as we have seen more than a couple 2's in model 1 sheaths.

The more I look at it, it sure looks like a Moore pouch flap, but then again, so hard to see clearly.

Maybe Jack can get better photos. I imagine an original under a magnifying glass may tell the story.

A footnote to all this. This is the exact reason the Randall shop would never give an opinion on a knife by a photo, even before the time of the internet. You had to send the knife, although the practice has been over for some time. Therefore, I am under the same requirements, even with modern tech. I get many emails every week from guys wanting to send me photos to tell them about their knife. Some act shocked when I tell them the shop policy and tell them they have to send it to me.
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