Trying to come up with a maker's mark; Opinions on this one?

[Jim T]

Have to agree with the majority here. Use your name as part of your makers mark.

My mark is my last name using a design that I created myself. Easy to read, but also unique. I put it on my blades with an Etch-O-Matic. I don't include my location because who knows when I'll be moving again. But I do want people to know my name.

You can still make the letters in your name as artistic or stylized as you want as long as it's legible. Even if you're not planning to become a world renowned knife maker, it would still be nice to have a stranger come across one of your knives and say, "Hey, an Andrew Riley knife! Very nice!"

Just my two cents...

Jim

[Frank Niro]

Well, here is my opinion. What does Bassthumper mean? Is it a name to hide your real one because you don't want people to see something of yours and know it's yours? If you want to reach out to perhaps grab a sale or two, you need to get your name out there. Your name lets people know what you do.Why bother with some wiggly on your knife? What is that supposed to be? I only make liner locking folders. I place my name on the inside of the spacer. It's very small, but very readable. Yes, I want to have my name there to show but I won't destroy the work I do by placing my name on the blade. Many are doing it the way I am. Your knives tell the work you do. I believe your NAME should be there to tell who made it. Well, you asked, didn't you? Frank.

[ARCustomKnives]

Originally Posted by Frank Niro

Well, here is my opinion. What does Bassthumper mean? Is it a name to hide your real one because you don't want people to see something of yours and know it's yours? If you want to reach out to perhaps grab a sale or two, you need to get your name out there. Your name lets people know what you do.Why bother with some wiggly on your knife? What is that supposed to be? I only make liner locking folders. I place my name on the inside of the spacer. It's very small, but very readable. Yes, I want to have my name there to show but I won't destroy the work I do by placing my name on the blade. Many are doing it the way I am. Your knives tell the work you do. I believe your NAME should be there to tell who made it. Well, you asked, didn't you? Frank.

Bassthumper is just a nickname. I'm also a bass player as well as a knife enthusiast, turning maker. I don't mind if people know my name, and I in fact will never put any work out (whether it's knife I'm making or anything else) that I wouldn't be proud to put my name on. That being said, I would simply prefer a mark that adds a little more flare or originality to my work than just "first name, last name, city, state, in a cookie cutter type face. Not that I think there is anything wrong with that at all, it's just not my personality. I'm also not saying that there isn't more than enough opportunity to demonstrate my "flare and originality" in the knife design and construction itself, but I'm the kind of guy who tries to take pride in even the smallest details.

As far as what the "wiggly" is supposed to be, it's just my first and last initials. It's definitely been interesting to see the varied responses. Out of a couple dozen people or so that I've showed it to elsewhere, it seems that the majority saw what it was right away. Seems like just the knifemakers are having trouble. haha.
That being said, I do value your guy's input, and I highly respect the opinions of the handful of seasoned knifemakers who have participated in this discussion.
I have therefore decided to combine both ideas, by putting a small "AR" logo on one side of the blade, and placing "A.Riley" and the blade steel in small print on the opposite side.



I went ahead and had my drawing converted to a vector drawing, and I think the R is accentuated just a little better, and hopefully easier to see.

[ckluftinger]

Well, as you can see from my avatar, I've chosen an "obscure" mark. With a last name like Kluftinger, I'd be making only very large knives, or the writing would have to be so small you'd need a magnifying glass to read it. Besides, no one could pronounce it, or remember it. Forget putting Christopher on it as well... if it's any consolation, Bassthumper, "AR" was my first guess on your design. No doubt about it. I get all the points about how your work can also be your "calling card", and it's true that if your name is on your work, people will find you more easily. HOWEVER, consider the world's greatest , and most recognizable brands: Nike, the "Golden Arches", the 3M logo, the Shell clam shell, and every car maker on the planet. No words required. My kids recognized them long before they were able to read! Of course, few of us will ever be among these brands - and I don't think any knife maker besides Henckel and maybe Victorinox is recognized by their logo alone, - but I do hope, one day, perhaps long after I've gone to that big forge in the sky, a collector somewhere will recognize my mark and say hey, that's a "Two Mountains Forge" Knife. And he'll pay a million bucks at a Sothesby auction...

[Ed Caffrey]

I had to think about it for a while, and almost decided not to respond, but from reading the last two posts, it's obvious that the thought pattern is a little different than reality.

Obviously folks can mark their knives in any manner they wish and if your only going to produce knives as a hobby, then all this is mute anyway....but I can tell you from experience that when/if a knifemaker steps into the "main stream" of the custom knife world...attending major shows and such, your reputation and sales will suffer if you choose to mark you work with anything that does not contain your name. Not only because many will not recognize the maker, but there is a large group of knife buyers who will not purchase a knife which does not host the makers name.

You simply cannot compare what we do with Micky Ds, Shell or any other major company....those folks spend millions of dollars a year to put those symbols/logos in front of your eyes, as often as possible, to gain that name recognition......most knifemakers simply cannot do that. We have to utilize a different strategy..... We have to give potential customer a way to find us, as simply and with as little effort on their part as possible.
An example: If an individual sees one of my knives, with the name "Caffrey", they will usually go to google, and type in "Caffrey Knives".....and there I am. They can also look in a Knife Annual in just about any book store and find complete information on me and my knives.
On the other hand, if I were to mark my knives with "EC", and type that into google.....nothing related to me or my knives. With only that information, anyone would also be hard pressed to find any information on me or my knives, without a great deal or effort and research.
In the beginning, I too thought I would mark my knives with my initials...but as I grew in the craft, I realized that I had to think in a scope outside of the people who knew me, or within my local geographical area.
Of course in the end it's up to each individual, but if the intent is to ever go beyond a hobby with knives, then how you mark your work can make all the difference in the level of success you achieve.

[Geno]

How about a different perspective from a guy who is still unknown after 30 years in the business.
Center Cross is my knife ministry, (well how it started anyway)
Today I have several employees who help make the videos, custom damascus, and machine/grind custom parts for the Ultimate Knife Kit and fill orders.
In 2010 we hired 4 new artists in the shop, we now use initials under the Center Cross stamp to identify who did what. Of corse the videos carry the Center Cross logo too.
My point is that my name (Gene Osborn) could not represent all Center Cross stands for these days, eventhough it was a dream of one man. I could not do it alone.
I have office staff, camera crews, editors, shop help, I pay weekly payroll and royalties each month. Gene Osborn Knives just didn't do it for me.
My senior partner gets the glory, I simply do what I love. (as it should be-for me)

In scripture, Paul was a tent maker who used his craft to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I simply use my knives in such a way. I am not trying to save the world, it is just my way of leaving the knife world a little better than I found it.

I broke the rules in knifemaking, many times. This may not work for everyone, but for me, I love being the unknown knifemaker, and am proud to be him.

God bless.
Geno

[ARCustomKnives]

I just want to let everyone know that I appreciate all the feedback received thus far, and you guys have given me a lot to think about, as well as a keener insight into something that I obviously had a smaller understanding of when I started this discussion. Hopefull this thread can help future "budding" knifemakers as well, when they try to decide on their own marks.
I also appreciate very much that the conversations have remained civil up until this point, as I know all too well how discussions can quickly turn sour (especially the "typed" ones) where contributors have differences of method or opinion. That's the internet for you.
This discussion has definitely further solidified my prior opinion of knifemakers in general, as a group of generally upstanding guys, who are more than willing to lend a helping hand or word of advice to the new guys who are just getting started. So I definitely thank you all for that.

To be honest, I never thought, getting into this, that I would even get to the point of needing a mark, much less a website, business cards, or even thoughts of renting a table at a local show (all things that could become real possibilities in the near future). As for where I see myself long term, however, I doubt that this will be much more than a part time hobby, as I'm currently in need of a job with consistent pay and benefits. I have the utmost admiration for those of you who can make this a full time career, and while I'm sure that would be a dream job for me, it's not gonna be something I pursue until retirement... In the mean time though, I definitely have no problems trying to better myself as a maker, and even picking up a handful of customers as I go along. At the very least, I would love to keep doing something I enjoy, while maybe make enough money here and there to grab a new tool once in a while.

Also, along those lines, I don't really have a problem with my work being trackable, so I HAVE decided to place my first initial and last name on the blade somewhere, but in addition to the logo that I designed. I'm not keeping the design because I have aspirations of becoming as recognizable as shell, mcD's, or (to make it more applicable) even the butterfly of benchmade, the spider of spyderco, bird's foot of microtech, or any of the other dozens of manufacturers (or private makers) who decide to incorporate a 'symbol' along with their name. It's simply personal preference at this point. If I find that future customers have big issues with it, then I'll probalby lose it. But for now, it's just one more way to personalize my work.

[ckluftinger]

Very well put, Bassthumper. I fully agree, and I also see Ed Caffrey's point of view as a professional. I agree that you should keep your logo, or "squiggly" or whatever. It's personal. Yes, it's a good idea to combine it with some way to let potential customers track you down, and I guess it's up to the individual to decide how that's done. With today's research methods at everyone's fingertips its a matter of "if you can't google it, it doesn't exist". Unfortunate, but true. There is a famous porcellain manufacture in Germany called Meissner. Their mark is a crossed pair of blue sabres. No name, just a pattern number. Enthusiasts recognize it, and pay accordingly. Experts know how the mark has changed over the years, and can tell you by looking at the mark approximately when the piece was made. All I wanted to say was that a distinctive mark sets you apart. It makes your work more recognizable, more memorable (the human brain is coded to recognize shapes and colors, not letters). But, I also agree with Ed that you need to be findable (is there such a word?) - so perhaps a combination of both is the ideal? I like your logo, I think it's flashy, stylish and will look good on a knife. Maybe A. Riley Knives underneath it to cover all the bases. After reading all the responses to your thread, I think I'll eventually add some sort of traceable string of letters to my mark to make me findable, too.

[ARCustomKnives]

Originally Posted by Geno

How about a different perspective from a guy who is still unknown after 30 years in the business.
Center Cross is my knife ministry, (well how it started anyway)
Today I have several employees who help make the videos, custom damascus, and machine/grind custom parts for the Ultimate Knife Kit and fill orders.
In 2010 we hired 4 new artists in the shop, we now use initials under the Center Cross stamp to identify who did what. Of corse the videos carry the Center Cross logo too.
My point is that my name (Gene Osborn) could not represent all Center Cross stands for these days, eventhough it was a dream of one man. I could not do it alone.
I have office staff, camera crews, editors, shop help, I pay weekly payroll and royalties each month. Gene Osborn Knives just didn't do it for me.
My senior partner gets the glory, I simply do what I love. (as it should be-for me)

In scripture, Paul was a tent maker who used his craft to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I simply use my knives in such a way. I am not trying to save the world, it is just my way of leaving the knife world a little better than I found it.

I broke the rules in knifemaking, many times. This may not work for everyone, but for me, I love being the unknown knifemaker, and am proud to be him.

God bless.
Geno

Geno,
I appreciate your input in this thread along with the others. As someone who has invested in a couple of your company's DVD's (Hollow Grinding and Flat Grinding), I just wanted to let you know that, whether you've followed the rules or not, or are well known or not, you've definitely put out some great products and helped THIS knifemaker gain both skill AND confidence through your efforts and those you have collaborated with. I actually have been meaning to pull both videos out and watch them again, as it's been awhile since I've looked at them.

I also appreciate the application of scripture in this discussion. I too try to be involved in constant ministry as well (though I'm far from being as consistent as I'd like to be at times) and I don't see knife making as any exception. I'm encouraged by your zeal.

I definitely have my eye on at least a couple more of your vids too... Those are definitely going on the list of "tools" that I'd like to buy with future knife sales.

[ARCustomKnives]

Originally Posted by ckluftinger

Very well put, Bassthumper. I fully agree, and I also see Ed Caffrey's point of view as a professional. I agree that you should keep your logo, or "squiggly" or whatever. It's personal. Yes, it's a good idea to combine it with some way to let potential customers track you down, and I guess it's up to the individual to decide how that's done. With today's research methods at everyone's fingertips its a matter of "if you can't google it, it doesn't exist". Unfortunate, but true. There is a famous porcellain manufacture in Germany called Meissner. Their mark is a crossed pair of blue sabres. No name, just a pattern number. Enthusiasts recognize it, and pay accordingly. Experts know how the mark has changed over the years, and can tell you by looking at the mark approximately when the piece was made. All I wanted to say was that a distinctive mark sets you apart. It makes your work more recognizable, more memorable (the human brain is coded to recognize shapes and colors, not letters). But, I also agree with Ed that you need to be findable (is there such a word?) - so perhaps a combination of both is the ideal? I like your logo, I think it's flashy, stylish and will look good on a knife. Maybe A. Riley Knives underneath it to cover all the bases. After reading all the responses to your thread, I think I'll eventually add some sort of traceable string of letters to my mark to make me findable, too.

That's a cool little fact about Meissner. I'm not sure if I'll ever attain that kind of status, but it is interesting to see things from that perspective as well.

On kind of a related note, I was priveleged to visit a very nice mansion earlier today, in which there was a number of spectacular antiques and other historical pieces, among which was a small writers desk which I was told belonged to one of George Washington's doctors, and even made it through a few battles supposedly. I didn't inspect the desk very thoroughly (it wasn't my place to do so unfortunately), so I'm not sure if it was even marked anywhere (I imagine it probably was), but I was definitely awestruck to see such a marvelous example of craftsmanship that has lasted for 300 some odd years or so.

Was it the most impressive piece of furniture I've ever seen? No.
Would it have been any less impressive had it not had ties to Washington? Not in my opinion.

It did instantly remind me of this discussion though, and the comments made about our work outlasting us, for others to look at and try to find out about. I can only hope that somebody walks through an old house one day, and stares in awe at the decades (or even centuries, as was this case) old knife with the "wiggly" mark on it.

[ckluftinger]

I agree with your sentiment about our work outlasting us. I'd be happy if my sons will one day pull out an old knife of mine and tell their grand kids about their great-grand pa and what a quirky duck he was, making knives in his garage...
I've thought about this discussion, too, and one thing that struck me, and I completely neglected to consider is the fact that most knife makers are not just the manufacturer, but also the marketer and retailer. That's why you need to be traceable, like Ed suggested. Of course, Nike et al don't deal with the public directly, they go through dealers, so they couldn't care less if their customers knew where to find them (they'd probably prefer they didn't!), but as an artist / artisan working for yourself it's important that your customers can get in touch with you. In my case I'd like this to happen only through e-mail or writing at this time, as I practise my craft in a residential neighbourhood and having a forge in my garage is not exactly part of the official community plan, if you get my drift...

[ARCustomKnives]

Originally Posted by ckluftinger

I've thought about this discussion, too, and one thing that struck me, and I completely neglected to consider is the fact that most knife makers are not just the manufacturer, but also the marketer and retailer. That's why you need to be traceable, like Ed suggested. Of course, Nike et al don't deal with the public directly, they go through dealers, so they couldn't care less if their customers knew where to find them (they'd probably prefer they didn't!), but as an artist / artisan working for yourself it's important that your customers can get in touch with you. In my case I'd like this to happen only through e-mail or writing at this time, as I practise my craft in a residential neighbourhood and having a forge in my garage is not exactly part of the official community plan, if you get my drift...

I hear ya. And with the millions spent in advertising each year, plus the 1000's of distributors, it's a little bit easier for guys like Nike. It's actually even the same with knife companies like benchmade, kershaw, buck, etc... These guys are household names for almost every knife enthusiast, but they also spend a LOT on ads and have a LOT of distribuitors. I can definitely see how the average private maker needs every advantage he can get in allowing others to find them.

That being said, there is still a lot to be said for the customers you can obtain through simple networking, word of mouth, website sales, online classifieds etc... where your customers aren't necessarily looking specifically for you, but still find you nonetheless.

I actually just got my very first customer when he saw a youtube video of a necker that I made, which a buddy of mine posted on his facebook page. I found a couple more potential customers as I was asking for opinions on my mark.

[ckluftinger]

Good point, actually. The "social media" is a venue i have a hard time with. I don't do the whole facebook, you tube and twitchy, jitter, thing. I've been sent to seminars with some hi-tech guru who told us how important these - I don't even know what they call them - things are, and how you can really maximize on your exposure if you are a part of it. Apparently some Pizza company caused a near riot in Boston two years ago just by posting some crazy one-hour special on facebook and within minutes hundreds of kids had showed up at this store wanting the pizza special. The power of the new media. I oughta get with it, but I just haven't tackled it yet - besides, who has time? And, are knife buyers the types to use "social media"? Maybe someone out there has experience in this regard?

[ARCustomKnives]

Originally Posted by ckluftinger

Good point, actually. The "social media" is a venue i have a hard time with. I don't do the whole facebook, you tube and twitchy, jitter, thing. I've been sent to seminars with some hi-tech guru who told us how important these - I don't even know what they call them - things are, and how you can really maximize on your exposure if you are a part of it. Apparently some Pizza company caused a near riot in Boston two years ago just by posting some crazy one-hour special on facebook and within minutes hundreds of kids had showed up at this store wanting the pizza special. The power of the new media. I oughta get with it, but I just haven't tackled it yet - besides, who has time? And, are knife buyers the types to use "social media"? Maybe someone out there has experience in this regard?

You know, it's funny... a little while ago, I would have NEVER thought of "facebook" as a viable venue for anything more than keeping in touch with old friends. And I'm by no means what I would call a "facebook" addict. I know people who are CONSTANTLY on that site, like they need it to live or something.

That be said, it looks like FB has evolved into kind of a free "web page" for a lot of people, whether they are a pizza shop, a band, a tattoo parlor, or what I've recently found to be a few knifemakers, survivalists, and guys/companies with other similar interest.
Are high end collectors going to be scouring facebook accounts for custom knife makers? Probably not. But there's definitely that middle ground full of potential customers who'd like a fairly priced hunter, neck knife, pocket knife, etc...

Heck, I wasn't even advertising for sales (nor did I have plans for sales any times soon)... I just posted a vid on youtube showing a completed knife for a friend, and another buddy put it on his fb page. Some guy NEITHER of us knows happened upon it and wanted one, so I decided to make him one.

Was it a fluke? Could have been, but there still may be some potential for the occasional customer. It definitely won't be a primary avenue for me in the future, but it is an option.
Same with youTube. They say a picture's worth 1000 words, but a video can contain 1000 pictures!