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The Damascus Forum The art and study of Damascus steel making.

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  #1  
Old 10-31-2007, 12:12 AM
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ArielSalaverria ArielSalaverria is offline
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Making a folder blade with a chainsaw / 5160 / bronze blade

A customer of mine asked me for this, since I don't make folders, I'm making the rough blade and then Ruben will be finishing it and making the entire folder.

Chainsaw and a SAE 5160 8" x 1 1/2" x 5/32" flatstock.






Electric welded the chain to one side.




Then the other.








I wrap that in two 0,5mm thick sheets of stainless 304 to prevent welding agains the cannister.




Then I place it inside the cannister.






And close it.

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  #2  
Old 10-31-2007, 12:12 AM
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ArielSalaverria ArielSalaverria is offline
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Then I place it on the oven at 1300 C




And press it with my hydraulic press using 30 tons




As it comes from the press, now the chain is welded to the sheet of 5160.






I start cutting the cannister to remove the inner piece. You can see how the stainless sheet works perfectly.








Once I remove the chain/5160 combo, I cut a 11/8" x 5 1/2" piece.




With two 2mm thick bronze sheets.




I repeat the previous process adding the bronze sheets between the chain/5160 combo and the stainless 304 sheets.

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  #3  
Old 10-31-2007, 12:13 AM
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ArielSalaverria ArielSalaverria is offline
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Smaller cannister.




And in they go!




Closed cannister.




Into the oven at 830 C.






Pressing it again.




After pressing and cooling.




Grinding the borders to get the inner content.






Final piece.

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  #4  
Old 10-31-2007, 12:15 AM
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ArielSalaverria ArielSalaverria is offline
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After I cut and grind some, the rough folder blade shape is there.






The damascus is not etched yet, but it should look like this (wich is what my customer based his order on)






Thanks for looking!


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  #5  
Old 10-31-2007, 07:34 AM
moon moon is offline
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Very cool,thanks for all the pictures.Looking forward to seeing the finished product.
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  #6  
Old 10-31-2007, 02:27 PM
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ArielSalaverria ArielSalaverria is offline
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Thanks!

Here are the replies to some questions I got!

Quote:
How does the chainsaw chain affect the strength/toughness/edge retention of the steel?
In my usual san mai steels, the laterals are softer than the inner core, so that adds to the resistance of the blade (that's the idea behind the process - and the damascus sides make the knife look nice ). In this case, there is some added resistance, but it's not that noticeable as in the 1010/1070 case due to the composition of the chainsaw (52100/1070) It is better than if the blade was just 5160 though.

As for the edge retention, all san mai steels have the exact same retention as a regular blade made with the inner core, as that's what gonna perform. So in this case, this blade will have the same edge characteristics as a 5160 blade.


Quote:
Ariel, I have always admired the way you do things most people say can't be done, like putting nonferrous metals into a steel blade or steel into mokume. laugh.gif Keeps 'em guessing!
I know a lot of people that like to talk... I prefer to work and let my creations speak for me

In these two links people can see the processes I use to make pretty much everything I offer, so anyone willing to try can actually do it:
http://www.aescustomknives.com.ar/docs/knifemaking.htm
http://www.aescustomknives.com.ar/docs/tutorials.htm

I get about a dozen emails a week asking me questions about different techniques and I'm always happy to help. (If anyone sent me an email that I didn't reply, please re send it, as I probably didn't get it or lose it on a spam filter - I get over 100 a day of those)


Quote:
why do you weld the stuff inside a canister??
I've welded a few bikechains and chainsaws before... always just using the handhammer to begin with and later a powerhammer... never used a canister, and it seemed to hold up nicely... now I'm wondering whether that was a mistake.... or maybe the container makes the whole thing just a lot easier?
I've hand forged bike chains and chainsaws before with no cannister and I've found my personal results to go in hand with the books I've read about it. An average of 90% welding, where you have to cut more un-welded borders or remake the entire thing if you get inclusions in the middle, etc.

Then I started to use a cannister, still hand forging with just a hammer and while it takes longuer, I got the same results as I get with the press, almost 100% welding. I haven't keep a real record, but I'd say 99% welding on all pieces I've made. Then with the press, I get even better results, reduce time and get to try new things.

The concept behind the cannister is the same as with stainless forging... It reduces the O2 inside and the steels weld easier

Now this cannister process is just to weld materials together, as for flattening more and shaping the steel, those processes (either you use a hammer, a power hammer or a press) are done once the ingot it outside the cannister.


What's important when you're adding other melted metals to the blade is that you kinda have to make the desired final thickness from the get go. The piece I've posted in the first posts was the second one I had to make for this project. You'll see why in the next pictures.

This is a chainsaw welded to a SAE 5160 flatstock, made exactly like I've showed before.






I don't press it to flatten everything as I need the empty spaces from the links to receive the melted bronze later, right?






But then you get to realize that this is still too thick for a folder blade...




And when you press it more to flatten it to the proper thickness, you lose the interstitial spaces to accomodate the bronze, and you end up with an ingot like this, with not enough bronze on it, that once the blade get ground, it's gonna lose even more.





And this is why you have to consider all of these (thickness, blade shape, and type of grinding to be done) before start making the piece!


As for the tempering, the previous dagger got HT'd to be somewhat softer (as it was a sticker) than a user knife, but this one will have to get a special treatment, with the bronze there and all, so I'll be taking pictures of that and the etching once Ruben finishes the grinding.




Thanks for looking!


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  #7  
Old 12-22-2007, 01:35 PM
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ArielSalaverria ArielSalaverria is offline
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Well, I had to make like 3 blades until we get something that both Ruben and I were comfortable with (he'll pick up the rest of the project on his end now) and I didn't have time to take pictures of the HT process for the collaboration folder blade.

That said, as I got a spare blade from this project, I've decided I'm gonna make a friction folder out of it. My first folder ever.

And I did take pictures of the HT for this one.

I picked up the use of potatoes for this type of projects when I was working on the Argentina train company many years ago. Sometimes flat screwdriver's tips get broken, and since we couldn't just order more, we forged the tip to proper shape again. And in order for the handle not to get burned or melted, we stucked a potato or two in there. They dissipate the heat very well and it's a really low tech and cost solution that just works.

I would estimate that the non exposed blade part get to aprox 200C, not more. Since I'm using 5160 for the blade and I've been working with it for a long time, I already know the exact color the steel gets (light red) to the needed temperature (840C)


Preparing the potato of the right size to receive the blade.




Presenting the blade in place.




Securing the blade in place with some wire.




Getting the torch ready.






Starting to heat the blade.






Exposed part of the blade gets red hot and ready to go.
Just don't take the exact color of this picture as there are lots of variables involved.




Quenching it in 60-80C degrees oil.




Resulting piece.

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  #8  
Old 12-22-2007, 01:38 PM
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ArielSalaverria ArielSalaverria is offline
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Cleaned up blade.




Second HT session (C degrees)
I place the entire blade here, as there's no problem with the bronze.




Finished blade.
9cm (3.5") long, 7cm (2.75") edge, 2cm (0.8") wide and 3mm (0.12") thick.
Already tempered, drilled, ready to go






Thanks for looking!


Ariel
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  #9  
Old 12-26-2007, 07:17 PM
Carey Quinn Carey Quinn is offline
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Ariel,

That potato trick is one of the slickest things I have seen in a while. I hope you won't mind if I give it a try. It may be just what I've been looking for.

By the way, thanks for the tutorial. It was well done and very informative.

Carey


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  #10  
Old 12-26-2007, 11:07 PM
tracer-san tracer-san is offline
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Carey,

Ariel is on vacations right now, but please feel free to use the potato as you see fit, it's not like it's propietary information or anything

Plus Ariel likes when people use stuff they see on the tutorials

NsB (AES webmaster)
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  #11  
Old 12-29-2007, 03:47 AM
CWKnifeman CWKnifeman is offline
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Ariel very nice blade It looks really beatuiful. Nice series of how to photos also.


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  #12  
Old 01-13-2008, 11:26 AM
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ArielSalaverria ArielSalaverria is offline
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Thanks!

Carey, by all means, please do

Ariel
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  #13  
Old 01-13-2008, 03:24 PM
Kibuddha4 Kibuddha4 is offline
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Holy crap, you are the man!


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  #14  
Old 01-13-2008, 08:59 PM
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TexasJack TexasJack is offline
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I love to watch your tutorials! No need to say anything about the blade; your work speaks for itself!


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  #15  
Old 05-01-2011, 05:53 PM
macaroni macaroni is offline
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thank you for showing
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