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Heat Treating and Metallurgy Discussion of heat treatment and metallurgy in knife making.

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  #16  
Old 03-24-2017, 10:48 AM
samuraistuart samuraistuart is offline
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1095 gives more problems than just about any other steel out there. Other than maybe W2...and both steels require an extremely fast quench. And W2 has HALF the Mn that 1095 does!!! (Aldo's steels).

Why use it? Hamon. Other than that....meh. If you don't have P50 or similar fast oil, you'll run around trying to figure out the issue, which is usually it's hardenability. If you keep re-heat treating 1095, you're going to cause the hardenability to get the the point nothing will harden it, in which case a normalizing would need to be done to re-set the steel.

Aldo's steels in the past where heavily annealed from the mill, which required normalizing to get them to harden properly. He has indicated that his current spring steel stock (1095) is ready to harden as received, however. I wonder if normalizing this steel at 1600F, cycling at around critical a few times (1525, 1475, 1425), then harden at 1475 would yield better results. Also, I would do interrupted quench....brine for 3 seconds, then finish off in 130F canola. (P50 is one of the best purchases made in my shop....I use it for all carbon steels except A2, of which I use canola...as I don't have plates)

The anti scale/anti decarb stuff from Brownells (at least one of them) is called ATP-641. A must have. You can also buy it directly from Advanced Technical Products. This will virtually eliminate decarb issues, which cause false failed hardness tests.

The 1080+, 80CrV2, is great steel for toughness (basically a fine grained 1080), and is a little bit more forgiving in quench speed than 1095. Mn count is about the same as 1095, which is the biggest contributor to hardenability, as far as the elements go, besides the carbon. There is a bit of Cr in there, which helps hardenability as well.
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  #17  
Old 03-24-2017, 08:22 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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I know about the 80CrV2 elements and have the same thoughts about it as you Stuart. I was wondering about the finished knife. There isn't a bunch of difference between O1 and it except .1% carbon and tungsten. I was asking if anybody has actually made a blade from it. Have you? Your answer is rather vague.

I have access to a forge and may buy a 12" piece from AKS just to try, but an oven looks like a more exacting way to test it, but it's a forging steel to. College has parks 50 like quenchant, may be ATF for all I know. It's certainly reddish like ATF. Class teacher didn't say.
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  #18  
Old 03-25-2017, 11:27 AM
samuraistuart samuraistuart is offline
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I have made a few blades from it, Jim. Actually, was my very first steel to work with.
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  #19  
Old 03-25-2017, 11:34 AM
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Andrew Garrett Andrew Garrett is offline
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I have success with 1095 in 140* peanut oil.
It's about three gallons. I agitate by slowly slicing through the volume of oil back, forth, up, and down.
I never 'paddle' through with the broad side of a blade--it just seems like that might cause warpage.

My oil (being organic) is approaching the end of it's life-cycle. I plan to try Parks #50 next.


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  #20  
Old 03-25-2017, 11:36 AM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Oh, OK Stuart.

Glad to know as I was wondering how it came out and what it was like. I can only guess at it's characteristics from just looking at its elemental analysis. Thanks for the info, anything else you can add?
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  #21  
Old 03-25-2017, 12:40 PM
samuraistuart samuraistuart is offline
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Well, what to add, hmmmm.....

I can say it is a tough steel, not a whole lot of wear resistance. Honestly, my opinion is that most people (me included!) would be hard pressed to differentiate many of these low alloy carbon steels. When wear resistance tests are introduced....maybe. Maybe you could tell a steel like 52100 vs 1080+. I think you could probably fairly easily differentiate a steel like 115W8 vs 1080+ in all out wear resistance, but wear resistance doesn't always translate to edge holding/retention.

More thoughts....to me, 80CrV2 is simply a finer grain 1080 with some added toughness over straight 1080. The vanadium content is low, and will not form primary vanadium carbides to any appreciable amount, and is only there to prevent grain growth. The chromium content is also low, but is there for a purpose...making the steel somewhat tougher, and somewhat more forgiving in HT, like 5160 is an extremely tough version of 1060/1065 due to the added Cr.

You can get a differential hardening line with 1080+, but not a true "hamon". My first kitchen knife was a santoku with a hardening line, 1080+. I've always appreciated Alpha Knife Supply for having that steel on hand. Aldo has it, too. The reason 80CrV2 is termed 1080+, from what I have read, is that Chuck at Alpha Knife Supply, when he first got this steel, termed it 1080+, because his customers were thinking that "80CrV2" was a chinese steel (that name almost does sound like the chinese steel designations). So he termed it 1080+ to help clarify that it was certainly NOT a chinese steel. I think the term suits the steel quite well. It is, after all, 1080 with a dash of V and a dash of Cr....and that's about the extent of it. There are a few out there who simply cannot see the correlation, claiming that 80CrV2 is something out of this world, and is way more than simply a "1080 plus" steel. Sure, the performance of a given steel isn't solely based upon it's % composition, but for crying out loud! It IS IN FACT just a fine grained, tougher 1080 steel! Nothing special about it. The specs allow for some Nickel content, but the stuff we are seeing and using doesn't have Nickel.

Any application where 5160 would be used, 80CrV2 would be a good candidate as well. Known mainly for high toughness. Speaking of Chuck, he also has 8670, which is another extremely tough carbon alloy steel. I've used it some...and I really do like it.

Last edited by samuraistuart; 03-25-2017 at 12:46 PM.
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  #22  
Old 03-25-2017, 02:19 PM
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Andrew Garrett Andrew Garrett is offline
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I went to the Maxim website. #50 is not listed.
Where does one buy Parks (Maxim) #50 these days?


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  #23  
Old 03-25-2017, 03:48 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Thanks Stuart.

I appreciate the feedback. Guess I'll just stick with the 1084 the college has and 15N20 for Damascus as the 15N20 is going to make it tough anyway. It's a shame 1095 is as picky as it is, but Andrew Garrett's peanut oil is quite thin and would be a fast quench medium for a steel like 1095. Has a higher flash point than Parks 50 to boot.

Mr. Garrett I searched the internet high and low for Parks 50 and the only place I could find it was Heatbath/Park Metallurgical, but their website says industrial only, but you could call them or email them.
http://heatbath.com/heat-treating-pr...ed-quenchants/
They have water based equivalents to oil quenchants as well, but list no prices online.

I cannot believe how hard it is to find it, found a place called Rye Oil that sells an equivalent, but the price is listed as 45 pounds for 25 liters which is about 6 1/2 gallons. I presume they're in Britain. You may have to stick with Peanut Oil since Maxim stopped carrying it.

You can ask Damon where or what he bought for his new quenching tank and Paragon oven.
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  #24  
Old 03-25-2017, 04:14 PM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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Mr. Garrett

McMaster Carr has quenching oil, and a 5 gallon pail is $80 plus shipping. They have two viscosities, but do not list the precise viscosity, just quench times. One is 11 seconds and the other is 28 seconds, You can call them and ask for the particulars. The 11 seconds is close to Park 50.
https://www.mcmaster.com/#quenching-oil/=16wupmc
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  #25  
Old 03-25-2017, 05:06 PM
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Andrew Garrett Andrew Garrett is offline
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Well... dang it.

Maybe I'll have to stay with the peanut oil then. It works great and I can get it in bulk at the grocery store. It always goes on sale around Thanksgiving too.

Maybe I'll try Wayne Goddard's 'Goop Quench'.


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  #26  
Old 03-27-2017, 11:14 AM
samuraistuart samuraistuart is offline
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If you are looking for P50 oil, there were only two places I know of.

1. Maxim oil in Fort Worth. Call them....don't rely on their website to show you P50 oil. That's how I got mine....by calling in the order.

2. I think Kelly Cupples has it, or at least HAD it....http://www.hightemptools.com/steel.html
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  #27  
Old 03-27-2017, 11:15 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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I tried Goddard's Goop on 1095 early on. Wouldn't harden it. Had to go to brine. That said, there are some who say that they've had good luck with Goddard's Goop with shallow hardening steel.

Doug


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  #28  
Old 03-28-2017, 03:55 AM
jimmontg jimmontg is offline
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I used an ATF mix with 10-30 motor oil and it is a fast quench, the college just told me that is their mix. All I can add is that it works good on 1084/15N20 damascus. File sliding hard. Use proper precautions for the smoke, it's evil.
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