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  #61  
Old 04-20-2013, 10:03 AM
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Hi Jack!

I don't find your posts boring at all, although Bill O'Reilly might have another term for your last one.

I'm not knowledgeable enough about pinned handled Randalls to offer much comment, but I assume that the knife-makers in Bo's shop just used their good judgement to choose the right size pin which would be compatible with the handle material, size and shape.

With regard to the "giant" crocodile of biblical proportions, I am very impressed that you were able subdue it with no harm coming to yourself.

However, despite the photographic evidence some might cry that your tale is a crock.

Cheers!

David


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  #62  
Old 04-20-2013, 10:41 PM
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Crock? Croc? What the heck? Listen Moose, do you think I would just fabricate a fantastic story about being attacked by a croc in Africa while fighting Lumumba?s cuban-led communist Simbas - tribesmen who were literally cannibals who actually captured killed and ate two of our mercs - merely to explain odd dates of a sheath and knife? And I did suffer grevious harm. No one seems to understand the loss, the psychological trauma, when one has the sheath for a cherished knife chomped by a crocodile which was trying to turn me into a modern day Captain Hook to boot?. (by the way... was Peter Pan's knife a Randall?)

Here are some additional details of the croc-battle that should convince the skeptical.

When I wildly swung the magic-Randall at the croc, I involuntary yelled something. My merc friends said it was ?OH ####, 0h ####? though I don't remember doing it. Well, my Luba boys thought I had given a Swahili battle cry, ?Oshirti o'simba,? which roughly means ?my strength will slay you, lion.? (edit correction - "my strength is as strong as a lion") Thereafter they not only regarded the knife as mystical, but they believed I was a fearless warrior (... well ...er ... kinda-maybe-not exactly) They nick-named me ?Bwana uchawi kisu,? or the ?man-boss of the magic knife? which was pretty heady stuff for a 17 year old.

Furthermore, my old friend, artist Fank Frazetta, was inspired by my story which I related to him about 1970 or so. He told me that he used the incident for one of his paintings - see below. See also http://frankfrazetta.net/



More proof? Here is a picture of the Randall Museum about late 1980s -1990 or so. I understand the museum is now in the process of being moved, so I don't know if this display case is still as it was then.



Now ? I hope I?ve convinced the doubtful with these additional details ? how could all of that be fiction?

-----------------------------

Actually, what I?m trying to do is to create some discussion within a consistent story line-lite. I?ve noticed that most of the Randall boards are oriented toward show-and-tell, which is great by itself. For whatever reason, discussions of age/era sometimes seem to become contentious, opinionated sometimes with little evidence offered, so is avoided.

Well, it seems to me the full story of Randall especially in the transition late 50s ? early 60s, is not yet settled. Ron?s excellent essay on pins was apparently about the first time that subject has been treated systematically. Hence the presentation of 5 pinned wooden handled knives that appear to have two different sized pins (both smaller than the big diameter pins ID?d by Ron). Is this significant? Heck, it might be just as you opined... merely a product of what was available. Incidentally, there is some good stuff on this board site about how-to-pin-a-handle.

One next step could be to compare pin sizes used in other handle materials and see if there is an era- size pattern or something. But that would probably require a large collection of pinned-handle knives as it is difficult to properly scale pictures.

On another question, not having handled hundreds of knives and sheaths I don?t know if the orientation of the vertical Randall stamp is significant. Is it a random event? Different worker-bee stamper? different company or location doing the stamping? I haven?t found this discussed, though it might be well covered in the literature, common knowledge among serious collectors. Again this might require about 50 brown button sheaths and knives to develop an answer, even if that answer is "not significant."

Regardless, we shouldn?t be hesitant to ask questions or exchange information, even wild ideas. All discovered truths start with a thesis, which is dependent on data.

As you can see, I?ve got a "crock"-pot full of crack-pot ideas. Definitely not accompanied by crocodile tears.

Regards, Jack Williams

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-27-2017 at 02:02 PM.
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  #63  
Old 04-22-2013, 12:29 AM
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Gary Clinton kindly forward high resolution pictures of his knife. I've amended the posts on page four to show his blade, handle, and changed the picture comparing pins because the pin in his knife, in the high-res pic, is approximately the same size as the one in the magic Randall.

I'll amend the other picture comparisons later with his high-res photos (NOTE: completed, much better). Regards

Last edited by Jacknola; 04-22-2013 at 11:01 PM.
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  #64  
Old 04-22-2013, 01:05 PM
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Thanks Jack for taking the time and effort to do all of this.

I for one appreciate it very much!!!

Cheers

David


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  #65  
Old 04-22-2013, 03:17 PM
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Hi Jack,

Sorry I've been AWOL for a bit. Lots of stuff to comment about. In the intersest of time I'll do a little cherry picking:

You mentioned Raffles in an earlier post. I was in Singapore for business last week. I stayed in the Fairmont Hotel and my room directly overlooked Raffles. I lived in Singapore in the mid 90's and have fond memories of downing a number of "Singapore Slings" in the Raffles Long Bar.

Good catch on the Randall logo orientation! I'm not sure if you can ascribe a manufacturer (Heiser or Johnson) or a time period to East or West. There's a good chance it was done at random by any number of different people.

On pins: There was some variation in diameter from the "norm", but it was early on. In general, pre-WWII and WWII pins were larger diameter:

Pre-war:



WWII:



The ONE exception was carvers / Model 6's. Many had smaller diameter pins. This one is pre-war, but I've seen a few WWII era and just post WWII with small pins:



I'm not sure why, but I suspect that the carver handles were smaller in diameter and would tend to "crack out" with larger diameter pins.

There may "seem" to be some diameter differential in pins from the mid 40's through the late 50's, but this is because the pins were peened to stay in place, and some "mushrooming" occurred. Note that Bo press fit a single diameter pin as opposed to using a tapered pin. Single diameter did the job and were a lot cheaper.

Edgar Rice Burroughs was my favorite author when I was growing up. I have a few of his first issues with illustrations. This one is from "Tarzan and the Foriegn Legion" written in 1944 and first published in 1947:



Your buddy Frank would have been great illustrator for Edgar!

Update: I just found this in Frank's bio "During this period (60's) he also did covers for other paperback editions of classic Edgar Rice Burroughs books, such as those from the Tarzan and Barsoom (John Carter of Mars) series. He also did several pen and ink illustrations for many of these books"

Best,

Last edited by BoBlade; 04-22-2013 at 05:48 PM.
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  #66  
Old 04-22-2013, 09:46 PM
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Hey Ron - I have a feeling we may find similar taste in lots of things. The Raffles hotel was/is (?) one of the greatest places in the east. I spent 5 months in Singapore-Malaysia-Indonesia in the very early 70s. Too poor to stay at the Raffles, but I went there, walking across the Padang many evenings. This was long before the city went to high rise. Great place.

If you use the link to Frank Frazetta's museum site, at the top you will find a number of "gallerys." Each gallery has pages of his work... my favorite fantastic artist. He was highly respected and his paintings are now extremely valuable, but he was sniffed and frowned at by the effete art world because of his unabashed machoism.

By the way ... you may remember the cartoons in 60s Playboy mag, "Little Annie Fanny?" He was the artist.

Re: knives and sheaths. I wish we could line up 50 Randalls, sheath face up, expanding the experiment that Gary Clinton used. Then have 5-6 experts each arrange them in order by perceived date. Record the results, turn the sheaths over, record the results. It seems to me that most sheaths for model 1s later on, say mid-60s had the stamp facing right... however I found several exceptions ...trouble is, it is amazing how few pictures show back of sheath. Could be nothing though, just a left handed sheath maker or something.

Thanks for your influence and sharing your expertise. Regards, Jack

Last edited by Jacknola; 04-22-2013 at 11:07 PM.
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  #67  
Old 04-23-2013, 10:18 AM
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Good morning, Jack,

I believe you're right! I spent a lot of time in Mayalsia as well. I had customers in Malacca, KL, Ipoh and Penang. Used to drive up from Singapore. Didn't go into Indonesia much. Spent a week vacationing in Bali and took the ferry to Batam to play golf a number of times. First time in South East Asia was Nam in the 60's. Then didn't go again until ~1980, but have had sales responsibility for SEA on and off since then.

I'm a bit of a hoarder: Don't throw much away. I still have all my Burroughs paperbacks from the 60's. I dug out a few and 3/6 of the ACE publications had Frank's illustrations on the cover. Here's an example:




I can see why you're so smitten with Frank. He was a hell of an artist.

I loved Litttle Annie Fanny!

I'll go through my BB sheaths this weekend and let you know what the stamp orientation breakdown is.

Best,
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  #68  
Old 04-24-2013, 08:04 PM
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East is east and West is west, and never the twain...

Here is every brown-button sheath stamped with a vertical Randall stamp that I could find published on the net that has both front and back pictures available (excluding Gary Clinton's 1-8 and the magic-Randall). There are two groups, two pics each. The first has front and back of sheaths with west facing stamp. The second has front and back of sheaths with east-facing stamp, plus one early baby dot with east-stamp. It might be interesting.

Note: no attempt was made to scale the sheaths pictured
BB-W-F



BB-W-B



Note the visual difference in sheath construction, "west-facing" stamp (above) vs "east-facing" stamp (below).



BB-E-B



This is not a very big selection. Some collectors have far more brown button sheaths sitting in their display cases then I could find on line with pictures of both sides of the sheath. So when evaluating what I conclude, the very small selection should be considered. Personnally, I wouldn't mind if this whole thesis gets invalidated...

For what its worth, I could find no sheath/knives with a vertical Randall stamp oriented east that looked older than about 62-63, as best I could date the knives given my second hand learning curve. And to my eyes none of the sheaths with a west facing stamp had a blade with obviously younger, post-62/63 characteristics

All the obviously older looking knives were in sheaths with a stamp that faced west. If I had included pictures of the knives that were in the sheaths shown in "west"pictures, I think the collective batch might be startling. Several of those knives seemed to have strong characteristics of knives dated to the 1950s. Two of these knife/sheath combos were definitively dated to 1960-61, as is a model 3-7 "fighter" in Hunt's "Randall Military Models", p 168, that also has a west-facing stamp. And that doesn't include Gary Clinton's 1960 dated model 1-8, or the magic-Randall.

Then in about 62/63 or so, the stamp orientation was apprently changed from west-facing to east-facing. This change might have been concurrent with other construction changes such as the position of the keeper snap. Or perhaps whoever was making the sheaths with the different snap location was doing the stamping differently. In any case, I wonder if it is significant that there seem to be considerably fewer brown-buttons with an east-facing stamp than with a west-facing stamp? The east-facing stamp seems to have been carried over and used on the early nickle plated snap sheaths.

In my view the organizational mind wants order. It would be contrary to human nature to just let a production hand randomly stamp a sheath, and most workers themselves wouldn't feel comforable if such a detail was just waved off by supervisor/owner with a "whatever." Furthermore, companies, even small ones, do not usually change their logo (or stamp) on a whim. Something occurred late 1962-63 and the stamp and possibly the sheaths, changed noticably... at least in the sample pictured above.

All this could be BS... given a larger sample.

How does this relate to pinned handles, the magic-Randall, the Congo, crocodiles? Well, Frank Frazetta also used another incident I was involved in during the Congo wars when we were rescuing the white hostiges in Stanleyville ... but it didn't directly involve the magic-Randall except as a talisman. Here is the painting he made roughly about that incident, just to keep on topic....



After intemission... Regards. Jack

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-27-2017 at 02:04 PM.
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  #69  
Old 04-25-2013, 12:57 PM
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Jack said:
Quote:
In my view the organizational mind wants order. It would be contrary to human nature to just let a production hand randomly stamp a sheath, and most workers themselves wouldn't feel comfortable if such a detail was just waved off by supervisor/owner with a "whatever." Furthermore, companies, even small ones, do not usually change their logo (or stamp) on a whim. Something occurred late 1962-63 and the stamp and possibly the sheaths, changed noticeably... at least in the sample pictured above.

All this could be BS... given a larger sample.
Well Jack, I think it's safe to say the your mind wants order, bit I'm not so sure about the folks who were making those Heiser/Johnson sheaths. Human nature unfortunately would allow randomly stamped sheaths. I have seen enough examples of this happening on many products over the years.

I agree that companies don't change logos on a whim, but in this case the it's only the direction of the stamp that's inconsistent, the logo remains the same.

BS is too strong a word for your theory, and it would be interesting to have more input from those who have more experience handling many Randalls of the period in question. Perhaps some will chime in. One can only hope.

Jack also said:
Quote:
Frank Frazetta also used another incident I was involved in during the Congo wars when we were rescuing the white hostages in Stanleyville ... but it didn't directly involve the magic-Randall except as a talisman. Here is the painting he made roughly about that incident, just to keep on topic....
Thanks for posting the illustration. Not only does it depict your courageous heroism, but thankfully it disposes any notion of political correctness which is all too prevalent today.

Cheers!

David


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Last edited by Moosehead; 04-27-2013 at 07:57 AM.
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  #70  
Old 04-25-2013, 04:13 PM
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Jack,

You may really have something there! As I see it, your theory is that on a consistant basis, Heiser stamped their Randall logo facing West, and Johnson stamped their Randall logo facing East. Your preliminary evidence is:

This photo of known Heiser sheaths (West orientation) at one end of the spectrum:



And your photo of a baby dot Johnson on the other end (Far right with East orientation):



These photos positively identify and chronologically bracket the sheaths. The issue is whether or not we can align sufficient data points within those brackets to render your theory scientifically viable. You mentioned three early examples:

1. Gary Clinton's name and year (1960) etched 1-8 (On the far left with a West orientation):



Fits!

2. Michael Mason's 4-6 with a 3-11-61 dated inked marked on the back of the sheath with a West orientation:



Fits!

3. Bob Hunt's double hilt 3-7 ink marked (if memory serves) 1961 with a West orientation.

Fits!

As I mentioned, I'm going to go through my BB sheaths this weekend and see if I can find any with chronological providence (Knife grinds or ?) that either align or are in conflict. I don't mind telling you I'm a bit excited.

Best,
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  #71  
Old 04-25-2013, 04:28 PM
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OK: I found another chronological alignment: The first order in Bo's journal for a 12-8 was February 6th, 1964. Here is a 12-8 with the only BB sheath I've ever seen:




It has an East logo orientation (Johnson) as Jack's theory predicts
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  #72  
Old 04-25-2013, 09:44 PM
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Here is the 1961 dated sheath, west-facing stamp, from Hunts book. I knew you'd remember and like this Ron, because it is a #3. Hunt says: ??Interestingly, the Johnson sheath is marked 1961 on the back, along with the name, which is also etched on the blade and SO East Asia 1964-1968.?



There is one more I can?t locate yet, but its a paper-work documented model-1 knife ordered in 1961, delivered in Jan 1962, brown button west stamp facing sheath? All in all, quite a number of 1960-1961 knives with vertical west facing stamp.

However, there may be something more going on. The east-facing stamps also seem to all be on sheaths that have the keeper snap moved to the edge... at least in the misicule sample that I had access to. So it may be that the stamp change was concurrent with the construction change. Was the construction change concurrent with a change in manufacturer? Here is where the major collectors can impact by publishing numerous pictures of knife-front/back sheath of their brown buttons.

For instance, if we could see the back of sheath for these three knives, it might invalidate the statement about ?no knives with obvious post 1963 features are in sheaths with west-facing stamp.? I would hazard a guess these sheaths all have a west facing stamp. The first was posted by ?Big Jim? on another board, the other two are from Hunt?s book.



Maybe there should be some caution equating the stamp change to Heiser/Johnson at this point. You all who have spent years looking at the real product have clues that id sheaths from construction patterns that I?m not savey about. However, in my day job, I investigate major oil field accidents offshore for the Fed Gov. So I tend to ask a lot of questions. And I also tend to ask what ?is normal behavior??

Heiser stamped their sheaths horizontally. It would be reasonable, normal behavior, to suppose that if they were required to use a new stamp, they would use it initially in the same manner, horizontally. But what would make them switch to vertical west-facing, especially if the sheaths with horizontal stamp and west stamp are closely concurrent in dates? Well, perhaps the Randall stamp wouldn?t fit horizontally on all the sheaths so they changed the orientation to vertical or something? that would be reasonable.

But, it is also possible to speculate that an entirely different company became involved here. That would be reasonable if it was shown that there was an overlap between west and east facing stamps after Heiser was definitely out of the picture. I guess I would not be too surprised to see the west stamp overlap the horizontal stamp and also overlap the east stamp for a period of time. However, I think it is definite that Mr. Johnson?s shop made the east-stamps with edge keeper snap.

Also, I?m pretty convinced that there are some fighting knives made in the 50s that were sheathed and sold in the early 60s as Vietnam heated up. I?ve several candidates? including the famous magic Randall.

It could be a productive line of inquiry and interesting to boot even if nothing definitive pans out.

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-27-2017 at 02:15 PM.
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  #73  
Old 04-26-2013, 03:32 PM
BoBlade BoBlade is offline
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Jack,

I quickly went though my sheaths this morning:

1. All baby dot sheaths had East facing stamps. This shows a consistancy by Johnson, even though I'm only sampling ~ a half dozen.

2. 3 out of 6 of my BB sheaths had West facing stamps. All of these had the diagonal keeper fastened to the middle of the sheath, while the remaining 3 with East facing stamps had the keeper fastened to the edge of the sheath. Another consistancy in a small sample size. This weekend I'll match up the knives to my BB sheaths. Right now I "believe" that the West facing logos match up with the oldest knives. Here are a couple of examples:

This one is very early 60's based on the choil cut:



This one is ~ '63-'64:



I don't have a pic of the 3rd West facing knife and sheath, but I believe the knife is a laminated brown Micarta that is also ~ '63-'64.

Re Hunt's knife: That's the one! I contacted the owner (Who I knew) shortly after Bob published that book, asking him if he wanted to sell it. His response was that "I don't have a duplicate"!

Big Jim's a friend. I'll ask him if he has a photo of the back of that 1-8 sheath and get back to you.

There was no other sheath-making company other than Stockman that made more than a few sheaths for Bo during that era, and there are distinct differences between a Stockman and Heiser or Johnson so these are pretty easily recognizable.

Best,

Last edited by BoBlade; 04-26-2013 at 03:35 PM.
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  #74  
Old 04-26-2013, 04:15 PM
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Jack,

I just remember this one that came up on Bladeforums in February of 2009. It also is very early 60's because of the choil cut. The Randall sheath logo is West facing and are you ready for this? The keeper is horizontal! I think this one pre-dates the Heiser sheaths with the Randall logos that recently came up at auction:





Here's another very early 60's 4-6 because of the choil cut (Bad pics - sorry). Again, West facing logo and middle of sheath retainer placement:


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  #75  
Old 04-26-2013, 08:09 PM
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Great stuff Ron. I do believe that a pattern is present. Re: the early knife with the horizontal keeper with west-stamp? That makes two. Check the fourth sheath in the west-front collage I posted! You can see the deep choll of that knife in the following west-back collage, similar to your pic. Also note the odd sheath throat-back construction. That is one of the knife-sheath combos that caused be to wonder if the Randall stamp was being applied in the late 50s.

But what does it mean? Well, permit me to systematize the options.

Lots can be done solving problems by applying systems and probability analysis. Of course there are different levels of certainty, and uncertainty. Law has criminal (?beyond a reasonable doubt,?) and tort (?preponderance of evidence.?) But there are investigatory and mathmatical methods designed to handle uncertainty. (Note: the oil industry deals with "proved, probable, possible" reserves based on statistical methods).

Here are a series of matrixes showing the sheath manufacture possibilities vs time:

3-company-basic: West-stamp ends and immediately east-stamp begins.



3-company-overlap. West-stamp continues for a while as east-stamp is phased in.



4-company: Lots of overlap in time as several stamp orientations are produced within the same time period AND west-stamps are produced after last known Heiser production.



Chaos: every possible orientation is produced in time periods that overlap, do not recognize start dates for Johnson or end dates for anyone.



I would suggest plot fifty or so dots that represent knife/sheath combos, eliminating knife/sheath/stone units that are suspected of new-knife put into older sheath etc. Then, overlay these matrixes and see which one fits. I think in the end, we will probably identify which of the above time-matrix is valid. this plot might look something like this:



[note: The yearly population of 'x's in the west-facing row is probably not as shown. The knives in those sheaths have probably often been dated "younger" in the literature then they really are, to try and keep the knife/sheath combo within a reasonable Johnson time frame. In fact, many of those knives are probably actually 1960 or 1961 instead of '62-'63. In fact, the population of west-stamp "x"s in the 60-62 years is probably pretty even year by year.]

Will that answer the questions of ?who?? Nope? but it will direct the next step of data gathering. For instance, if matrix 3-B above is the most likely manufacture model, the questions simplify and where to get the answers could be indicated. Perhaps some ex-Heiser hands in Colorado could answer a few simple questions, such as date of last delivery of Heiser sheaths, and the stamping questions, ... that could solve everything. An ad in the newspaper for Heiser employees circa 50s-60s era, or phone calls could ease the process.

Now that I think if it, it could be reasonable for some west-stamp sheaths to have knives who's date overlaps the date of east-stamps. I doubt the manufacturer of east-stamps could immediately handle all demand ... so there should normally be some overlap.

Personnally, I think 3-B is the most likely scenario. There is such an obvious difference in the east-stamp sheath construction from those with a west-stamp, that conventional thought, that Johnson first started building Heiser look-alikes and then abruptly altered his design to the east-stamp, seems a little radical. If the 3-B scenerio is correct, the dating of the first knives in the early east-stamp sheaths would seem to roughly coorespond with the traditional lore about start-up date of Johnson manufacture.

Frankly, the similarity of the west-stamp sheaths to Heisers would seem to make door number one answer to be ... west-stamp = Heiser.

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-27-2017 at 02:17 PM.
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