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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 11-12-2008, 11:51 PM
T. Hendrickson T. Hendrickson is offline
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Stub tang for elk antler

Like the title says, I am making this knife for my dad. For most of my stub tangs, I use a mortising technique I found on this board, described by Terry Primos. However, this Antler piece is whole, and so the channel cannot be milled out for the tang. How best do I approach the problem? I am thinking I may need to drill a 1/4" hole and use a rat tail file to widen it to accept the tang. Any other ideas?


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  #2  
Old 11-13-2008, 12:46 AM
Mike Krall Mike Krall is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. Hendrickson
Like the title says, I am making this knife for my dad. For most of my stub tangs, I use a mortising technique I found on this board, described by Terry Primos. However, this Antler piece is whole, and so the channel cannot be milled out for the tang. How best do I approach the problem? I am thinking I may need to drill a 1/4" hole and use a rat tail file to widen it to accept the tang. Any other ideas?
You can split the antler, flatten and mortise it if you want. Getting the split line in the center of the handle and the blade is the tough part because the line won't disappear... it's either right or it's not.

Some would drill and scrape out all of the core (porus center) then glue it up with AcraGlass. Doing it this way needs attention to handle positioning as the epoxy sets. Like it needs to be checked often until it thickens and freezes the postion of handle and blade.

If the antler is drilled/scraped just enough to fit the tang, I like to get everything warm before gluing... antler, blade/tang, and epoxy... by putting them in a box with a lower wattage light bulb. AcraGlass is runny when it's warm and when put into a warm antler it fills the pores in the cores. You can try this on a scrape piece of antler, let the glue cure, then cut sections to see if you feel the glue fills the pores adequately... like totally. 85F to 100F is warm enough. If the parts and glue are hot, they set up quicker and I think it's not good for the glue strength.

Mike
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  #3  
Old 11-13-2008, 06:18 AM
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Crex Crex is offline
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Thin your epoxy with acetone and use the long cure-time mix (not 5 min or 30 min). Warm is ok but DONOT get it hot! (see Mike's words of caution) Heat causes epoxy to set faster. It will make it runny at first but once it starts to cool even the slightest it will set at an accelerated rate. With some of the cheaper brands the "over heated" set will be an inferior product and be crumbly like dry cornbread - not what you want for sure.
Unless the antler has a large extremely porus core area, this should work fine.

Otherwise you are looking at the "grub-out and fill" mentioned by Mike. Tough game positioning holding and everything in place to cure. You can use hardwood shims to take up space and position everything if you go this route.

Now, if not too porus (first part of post) drill the hole slightly undersize. Clamp the blade in some "safe" aluminum jaws in your vise and heat the tang to cherry red. Push the handle carefully on to the tang paying close attention to the alignment. This is going to stink so ventilate well! May take a few heats to accomplish. This will give you a tight nonsloppy fit with hardened and packed material around the tang. You will still need to soak diluted epoxy in around the rest of the porus area, but you will have a tighter, tougher fit.

Just so you'll know, I have tested this type of assembly with extreme measures, eventually crushing the antler with a hammer to get it off the tang. If a finished knife is subjected to that kind of abuse, it's probably no longer serviceable as a knife and just a poor example of a jackleg screwdriver at that point.
I believe in testing things to be confident in what I do.
Good luck with your efforts


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  #4  
Old 11-13-2008, 08:38 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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I use a drill with the same diameter as the thickness of the tang. My tangs are usually 2.25" long. Drill one hole dead center in the location where you want the tang to be. Drill one additional hole above the first hole and one below the first hole. Make sure the edges of the holes are separated by at least 1/16" and keep the holes in a straight line with each other. The holes should be slightly deeper than the length of your tang.

Next, put a Roto-Zip (available at the local hardware store) bit in your Dremel. Make sure the working length of your bit will reach the end of the holes you drilled. Cut out the web between the holes. This makes a tight fit hole and usually requires less than 5 minutes work. If necessary, files will open up or square up problem areas....


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  #5  
Old 11-13-2008, 09:27 AM
AcridSaint AcridSaint is offline
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What I've done is basically the same as Ray describes. There are a couple of things that I do to help keep the blade inside the handle.

One is drill out the tang and peen some brass pins in it to give it a surface to grab if the blade is being pulled. With that same goal in mind I also notch the tang in two or three spots at the end of the stub to give it more "grabbiness". Lastly I take a dremel tool and a burr and cut a couple rings inside the tang hole on the handle. These grooves will give the glue a place to expand, the idea here being that once the glue is a solid piece it will not be able to pull back through the hole made for the tang.

The whole idea here is that I cannot prepare the inside of the handle to accept glue well, we're stuck with what it is after drilling. By taking those steps I can be assured that the blade will not free itself from the handle even if the glue were only able to bond to itself. Probably not necessary to take all of these steps, but they don't add very much time or money to the equation, so I do it.


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  #6  
Old 11-13-2008, 10:55 AM
J. Scott J. Scott is offline
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You will never know if you over do it. ( only if you under do it )


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  #7  
Old 11-13-2008, 12:55 PM
T. Hendrickson T. Hendrickson is offline
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Thanks Carl, Ray, Cap.

So I'll make sure and thin my epoxy. Is there some rule to follow when thinning? Or just by trial and error?

Carl, your method sounds interesting; so you actually melt the antler piece into shape to accept the tang? I imagine this stinks to high heaven! But it seems like it would give a very solid fit.

Ray, this stub tang is closer to 3" long, so I don't know if I could clean it out with a roto-zip, although that sounds a lot easier. Thats why i imagine I would have to use a rasp.

Cap, that sounds like a pretty smart way to ensure integrity in the stub tang. I'll also have pins through the antler and tang, so If I incorporate your method, I imagine it would take some kind of force to seperate the two!

Thanks all.


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  #8  
Old 11-13-2008, 02:31 PM
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NJStricker NJStricker is offline
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The Roto-zip bit will only reach so far, especially if using a longer tang.

As you've seen above, there's basically 2 methods for drilling the hole. Drill one large hole and fill in the gap with shims and epoxy, or drill just wide enough for the thickness of your stock, drilling several holes for the width of the tang and then removing the excess. I usually do the latter when I can. I modified a hacksaw blade by grinding down the spine so that I have only about 1/4 inch of material above the teeth. I then use that to cut through the excess. That usually gives just enough room to start working with the rasp and also serves as a guide so that the rasp doesn't drift too much.
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  #9  
Old 11-13-2008, 04:42 PM
Kencornett Kencornett is offline
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cool!

Carl i have never tried that before...gonna have to try it on some solid core mule deer i have. i usually do as cap described, i always scrape the porus center out. remember the chain is only as strong as its weakest link! so be sure to get all the pith out. the just notch the tang, score some ledges inside the antler and you will be good to go. i usually use a brass pin, but i have tested some to destruction that had no pins and they held up fine. all of these ideas are great! Carl it just goes to show there is always more to learn! thanks for that!

God Bless
Kenneth
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  #10  
Old 11-13-2008, 08:48 PM
Mike Krall Mike Krall is offline
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http://www.brownells.com Put AcraGlass Solvent & Thinner in the search box.

This is what I use to thin epoxy. Except for odd ball epoxy use, I only use AcraGlass and AcraGlass Gel... well, a little JB Weld, too. The can says it contains Xylene and Ethylbenzene. A friend of mine who builds high end custom rifles uses it 50/50with AcraGlass to seal stock bedding and under pistol grip caps and butt plates or pads. I've used this mix for handle finishes on kitchen knives and it holds up well. At 50/50 the mix is very thin.

I may not be right about this but it seems like the thinner has to evaporate off before the epoxy will set up. Might be the thinner just delays the set up, though. Biggest problem I have using AcraGlass for knives in small quantity is getting the 4:1 measuring ratio right. Even 1/8 teaspoon measures are too big for tiny batches.

Mike
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  #11  
Old 12-09-2008, 09:14 AM
Echo4v Echo4v is offline
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This being my first post it may not be taken as seriously as the rest of the advice mentioned on here but I was told by a professional knifemaker at smoky mtn knife works that the best way to put a whole antler handle on is to boil the antler to the point that you can make an inpression in the core by pushing a screwdriver into it. When it's that soft you make sure the blade is clamped securely and push the antler on by hand. He said it's very important that you get it lined up just right and only push it straight on to the point you want it then leave it alone for several hours to cool. I actually watched him do one this way and it made a beautiful handle. He said if you twist it or don't get it on just right then you need to pull it off immediately and you'll have to either use another antler or you'll have to epoxy it.

In his explaination for why this works he referenced the fact that antlers can be boiled down to make a very strong glue ( just like hooves and bones) and that as the antler cools it will actually glue itsself to the part of the blade that is inside it. He showed me a knife he carries that had the handle put on in this way ( he said it's 10 yrs old) and the handle was as secure as an handle I've ever seen. This method sounds to me very similar to the one Carl mentioned except you don't have the stench from the metal burning its way into the antler.

Hope this helps.
David
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  #12  
Old 12-09-2008, 04:26 PM
T. Hendrickson T. Hendrickson is offline
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Wow that is very interesting David. I would like to try it very much. It's hard to believe that the antler gets so soft that you can actually push a piece of steel through it!

What I ended up doing was sticking the tang all the way through the antler; I used a round rasp that I filed flat on both sides to widen a 1/4" hole I drilled through it. I used Carl's trick for the last little bit. I warmed and thinned the epoxy, then I peened the tang over a brass butt cap. Worked pretty well, thanks again everyone.


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  #13  
Old 12-10-2008, 05:29 AM
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Crex Crex is offline
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It's the firebug in me David, that's why I forge. Grinding, boiling, burning.....face it, working antler stinks. Sure finishes up purty tho'! Think that smells, try shoving a red hot tang down a deer legbone that still has some rancid residual marrow lurking in the shadows. Takes several washings to get the stuff out of your clothes.
David - we'd love to have you come join us at one of the Georgia Guild meetings. You can meet alot of gifted professional, serious hobbiest, and beginner knifemakers that live right here in your own back yard. Goes for anyone else interested as well. Great way to learn and network.

Kenneth - the solid core mule deer stuff will be a slow go with the burn-in and your hole needs to be pretty close to the right size at the start.

I think the biggest concern I have with any of the methods is addressing the pithy fiborous areas - therefore the thinned epoxy approach. On a small bird/trout or hunter it may not be an issue. On a big hunter or bowie that might possibly be used for chopping, I feel it's very important to fill these voids as best possible. I do not want one of my knives coming back with a loose or cracked handle because of something I didn't address.


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  #14  
Old 12-10-2008, 08:29 AM
Echo4v Echo4v is offline
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Carl, I have been looking through this site and was thinking about trying to find one of those guild meetings in my area then I see your message and you're in my area. I live in Cartersville and work in Kennesaw. When is the next meeting near us? As far as the porous nature of the antler, wouldn't the extra mass of the tang inside the antler necesarrily compress the antler and increase the density of it? I don't know if that would take all of the poruousness out but I would think most of it would be gone. I'm actually in the process of making a small skinner that will have a handle attached using the boiling method and hopefully I'll have more input on the subject once it's finished. Of course this being a hobby and me working and attending college classes it won't be done for a while yet.

T. Hendrickson-are we going to get to see a picture of the finished product? The photos and tutorials have so far been amazing on this site and have given me several more project ideas to try out.

David
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Old 12-10-2008, 10:30 AM
T. Hendrickson T. Hendrickson is offline
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David, I can try and take a picture with my phone, it may not look great but I don't have a good camera.

I'll post it when I get a chance.


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