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Fit & Finish Fit and Finish = the difference in "good art" and "fine art." Join in, as we discuss the fine art of finish and embellishment.

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  #1  
Old 06-26-2002, 05:52 PM
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Osprey Guy Osprey Guy is offline
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Smile Kitchen Knife Progress & EpoxyQuestion

After a slow start, I'm nearly finished with the first of my kitchen knife commission, a nice, big carver! So far looks really great...you might even say "sexy!"

Got the 1/4" holes drilled into the tempered steel using the solid carbide bit-no problem, took it slow but at high speed while keeping it cool with cutting fluid.

Ivory Micarta from TKS is working really nice with no "specks" that I can see. Went with red spacer which worked nice with the Ivory. (New, red "high-tech" plastic from TKS split and chipped like crazy-arrived cracked-pain in the neck to use. I bought a package of red plastic "picnic" plates from Target for $.99, vivid, brilliant red color goes all the way through the plastic, worked terrific and easy to use!

I decided to hold off on glueing until I had the handle shape fully figured out...a design in progress. Shaped handle and kept both sides symetrical by "holding" pins in the holes. They were just snug enough to mostly stay in place as I worked. This allowed me to revisit front edge of handle and still re-shape as desired.

When I do apply epoxy, I think I better color-tint the glue to match the Ivory in case there is any show through. rather than experimenting with color combinations, does anyone have a good idea of how best to mix epoxy colorants to achieve fairly good match to Ivory? I've never done this before. with any color least of all Ivory.

I have a surprise in the handle design-something a little different. Haven't decided whether or not to go ahead with filework...don't want to overdo it... too much of a good thing? I'll decide tonight.

I'll complete 2 knives before submit to customer (they asked for 2 or 3 and if they like them, will move ahead with full set). I've known them for many years and am not overly concerned about them changing their mind. I have no doubt that they're going to "Love" these!

I'll post photos when finished for your review and critique (can we say reality check?).

Thanks,
Dennis

Yeah Baby!
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  #2  
Old 06-26-2002, 06:11 PM
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Bob Warner Bob Warner is offline
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Dennis,

You are taking a different approach than I do and some of the others here as well. In the case of a Kitchen knife I personally would cut the handle slabs "Close" then epoxy one side on and drill through the slab using the holes in the tang as guides. Then epoxy the other side on and drill that slab by drilling through the other slab and the tang. After it all sets up, I shape the handles and go all the way to finish.

Since you have already done all of the shaping (assuming you are completely done) just spread on the epoxy and slide into place (sliding eliminates air pockets). After they are all in place, epoxy up the pins and do them (you will need to work the pins down to handle surface, this is why a lot of people shape AFTER everything is epoxied together). Then hand sand to final finish.

Colored epoxy (even clear) may mess up your finish on the Ivory micarta so get that off asap. No matter what you do, you will most likly have to hand sand a little to get to final finish, then buff if you plan to go that far.

If your fit is good, you may want to match the red spacers instead of the micarta. You will have to make that call but also if the fit is good enough, you don't need to color it at all.


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  #3  
Old 06-27-2002, 12:06 AM
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Osprey Guy Osprey Guy is offline
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Bob-
As always, thanks for responding so quickly. Please let me address a couple of your points -with the following short novel!

Over the past two weeks, while waiting for materials and equipment to arrive, I carefully thought through the process I would take when I could finally begin working the first knife in this group. There is a reason why I didn't epoxy the slabs to the tang in the order you describe.

It was made clear to me, from all that I have read in these forums, that if I chose to glue the slabs down first, I would be forced to complete, in advance, the final shaping and sanding of the forward radius/edge that comes in contact with the (satin finished) blade. I clearly would not be able to work this front edge after it's been glued in place, or risk damage to the blade's finish. Although I had some thoughts about the design, I didn't yet have a clear idea of exactly what shape that forward edge would ultimately take.
So, in order to give me the freedom to let the design evolve as I shaped the rest of the handle, I was forced to come up with an alternate approach.

As you know from previous discussions, after I decided on hole placement, I had to drill new holes in the tempered tang. Then, as instructed, I did cut the slabs "close". But, rather than epoxy I then carefully clamped one side to the tang and drilled through the tang to the outside of that 1st slab. I removed the 1st slab and then did the same to the other side by clamping the 2nd slab to the tang. Later, as I sanded and shaped the handle, I simply "held" the pins in place through the slabs (with or without the tang depending on which area of the handle I was working). I now had total freedom to change the shape of the forward edge as often and as much as I wished. If I found myself working too close to the blade, I simply removed the full tang, replaced the pins through the slabs only, and shaped more of the front edge at will. (This change in procedure also will allow me to hold off on the filework decision until the handle is fully formed, not to mention being able to do the filework on the blade only, without interference from a glued-on handle.) Because of this design "freedom", I feel I was able to ultimately wind up with a far more interesting and attractive handle, substantially changed after-the-fact, from my original concept.

My sanding is mostly finished up through a 600 grit. Planning in advance, I left extra material on the sides where the pins are located to compensate for what I will lose when I finish sanding the pins. When all is glued, I will "fine-tune" and take the finished handle to a much higher grit.

Regarding the colored epoxy: In this particular case, because of an ever so slight miscalculation on my part, one of the three pin holes, on one side only of the handle, is opened a hair larger than perfect. Most folks wouldn't even notice the miniscule gap on one side of the pin, but it's really bothering me. I figured I'd use the ivory-colored epoxy to camouflage that slight flaw. I'll be sanding this area a touch more anyway when I finish off the pins, so what the heck.

Also, a very small portion of the front edge of the handle contacts the metal where the tang first begins to taper ever-so-slightly to the blade. In an extremely small portion of that front edge (maybe 1/8"), there is a no more than 1/100th" gap that is now created between the red spacer and the tang where that slight taper first begins. Because this edge is now, not totally flush (you almost need a magnifying glass to see the gap) I'm not sure if it is fair to expect that the epoxy will plug up the difference, without creating a compromise to the bond. But I really love the "S" curve that forms here and would hate to cut it down any further, to where there is no taper at all. Another job for colored (red) epoxy?

After gluing the slabs, my plan is to push each pin in until flush with one side (first filed slightly for impoved glue-grip, and the hole filled with epoxy), then align mosaic patterns, and let glue set. Then, using my Dremel, with a Gyros-brand, reinforced fiberglass, "ST" cut-off wheel (it slices right through these pins easily), trim off excess pin material as close as possible to handle. I'll use the Dremel to sand pins flush with handle, then fine sandpaper pins and micarta 'til finished.

In summary- The red epoxy is a no-brainer but I still would like some advice on that ivory-colored epoxy mix.

I think this bit of extra hassle will be worth the final product. Looking at my nearly finished knife, I now believe my customer is going to wind up with some rather unique, very stylized, highly refined kitchen knives (or so I hope). More like formal serving/dining knives actually!

Sorry for the overly long, detailed description. Just want to make sure I get this first fixed blade perfect for your "white-glove" inspection. Now that I've finally completed my decisions for the handle design, and have got some new skill-sets under my belt, the next knives should go much more quickly (I hope, I hope)

Dennis

Whew...

Yeah Baby!



PS. When you get a chance, please review the two CKD tutorials that greatly affected my decision to leave my design options open, "Let's build a 'lil skinner" and "Making a knife without a guard"(from TKS). Both show drilling holes through clamped-on slabs first, then later gluing onto tang after rough shaping first. TKS is very specific about final shaping and polishing the scales' radius before gluing. Neither of these approaches allow for changes to the front edge/radius design once the slabs are glued in place, so that's when I decided that I was forced to alter the order of things a bit.

Last edited by Osprey Guy; 06-27-2002 at 01:58 AM.
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  #4  
Old 06-27-2002, 06:36 AM
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Don Cowles Don Cowles is offline
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Dennis, most of the epoxies used in knifemaking (my choices are K&G and Golfsmith shafting epoxy) cure with pretty close to an ivory color anyway. You can bring it even closer by mixing in some sanding dust from your handle material. I have actually sacrificed a piece of handle material for just this purpose in the past: grind/file/sand it down to nothing, collecting the dust as you go for future use.


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Old 06-27-2002, 07:16 AM
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Dennis,

I don't make too many knives without guards or bolsters but on the few I have done, I already knew what I wanted the front of the handle to look like when I started so my way was easiest for me. If you are fine tuning, like you did, the way you did it is great. I hesitate to advise that method because as a beginner, it is easy to get things out of whack (Put the wrong slab on the wrong side after doing some work) and ruining a pair of slabs. Sounds like you are not having "Out if whack" problems so you only need help with the epoxy coloring issue and Don hit it perfectly.

If you want to match something, using that same item for the coloring is about the best you can get.


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  #6  
Old 06-27-2002, 09:54 AM
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Osprey Guy Osprey Guy is offline
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That's a perfect solution. I have definitely accumulated enough ivory colored dust over the past couple of days to deal with this minor "gap".

When the time comes for me to post photos,
I think you'll see why I'm so pleased with the outcome of my "fine tuning" approach.

Thanks!

Dennis

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  #7  
Old 06-28-2002, 08:04 AM
Kelly Carlson Kelly Carlson is offline
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You probably won't need it at this point, but several supply firms do sell dyes for epoxy. I've also used powdered, water soluble wood dyes successfully with epoxy. A little experimentation helps to develop a good match, i.e. a tiny touch of brown added to white dyes to produce an ivory mix, etc.


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Old 07-01-2002, 11:17 PM
falconhawk falconhawk is offline
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Color aditives

One one project, years ago, I was making a skinning knife for a friend and he wanted it to make you think of a "Killer Whale".
I used a white epoxy and added black to it by using acrylic artists colors........

What ever works, right?
Falconhawk


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Old 07-02-2002, 12:44 AM
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Osprey Guy Osprey Guy is offline
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Acrylic colors...hmmm

Did you add the black throughout in order to turn it completely black or are you talking about spot areas of black? Please elaborate on this creative solution.

Details man, we want details!!!

Heh, Heh...

Necessity is the mother of invention...yes?

Dennis

Yeah Baby!

PS. Getting a little slap-happy...coincidently been makin' Ivory Micarta dust (so to speak) for the past several hours. Feels like a few ounces made it past my respirator...
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Old 07-02-2002, 01:05 PM
falconhawk falconhawk is offline
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Acrylics

When I made that knife I used a small thin brass crossgaurd and added epoy(white) to build up the handle. Befor the epoxy dried completely, i gouged out some random areas and then mixed black acrylic paind with another batch of epoxy resin. Added the hardener and over laid the gouged out areas with the blackend mix. I let it all set up, about 90%cured and then went back and finished out the handle, shaping and the "rough-polish". I had finished the blade completely before I started on the handle. So all that was left was the final polishing once the epoxy was completely cured. The epoxy was some type of white industrial epoxy that we used in my Dads shop about 25 years ago so I do not recall the name of it and I do not know if it would still be available today. Was good stuff though! Hope this helps.

Falconhawk


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Old 07-02-2002, 03:17 PM
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epoxy caveat

Dennis- Beware of old epoxy! It has a very real shelf life.


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