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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 02-26-2013, 08:50 PM
ramitupurs84 ramitupurs84 is offline
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New Guy Here: opinions and thoughts

Hi,

Not sure this the place, but here's a little info about myself before start rambling.

I live in Mid-Michigan. I am a volunteer firefighter in my township along with my other full time job. I am 26 and love guns, hunting, bows and the outdoors. A little video game and wife too . I may be a desk jockey today but started my life out as a certified welder.

So I've been following Dave Cantebury on his youtube channel. He made a knife out what looked like a charcoal grill type forge and a rail road spike. He kept name dropping Wayne Goddards '$50 Knife Shop'. So I bought it and read it all in about a day and half while watching some tv. Weird I know. Now I am going have to read the hardening and tempering sections again. I was chatting with a buddy about it and I think I have my bases covered. He has a old kitchen setup in his basement that the previous owner used for canning. So I can do Wayne's toaster oven esk tempering. It just so happens the said friend's step mother has a kiln for her pottery. Bam I have the hardening covered minus the magnet test and "goop" I read about in Wayne's book. I have pretty good access to used motor oil and hydraulic fluid for the goop quench give I want to have double edged blade.

I am a newbie. I have no preconceived notions Ill be at the caliber of the work I've seen. I want a simple rugged knife. I am not ready to reinvent the wheel design wise. I have 30+ years to catch up on Wayne so I traced my favorite kitchen knife with some subtle improvements onto a stolen piece of scrap book paper my wife had I plan on making a stock removal type blade out of 1095 CS. I figured I'd make it out of 1/8" x 1.5" x 12". I am not even to the handle stage so I won't go down that path.

I have a home improvement project I need to wrap up before I jump in bed with this project. I need to do my homework on some Aspects of the process still. Here's how I read the process to go along with questions I am hoping my turn out gear can stop me from being flamed:

1. I don't want to chop up any of my lawn mower blades this go around like Wayne did. I need to make some calls locally but what's some trusted vendors for 1095 CS that I am looking for on the web? I did use google and read up on D2 material too. I think 1095 is the best material for me to use.
2. What's the best method to remove material from my scribed outline. Grinders seem like the best way to go with out burning up the knife blank for cutting the excess from the outline. Right?
3. Once cut out I read the general process to be:
- Hardening: Magnet test the piece until it does not attract. Granted I need to read the section again and get more creative in my google searches. Do I want to do the entire piece (tip to end of handle) or how far do I go with into the kiln? What kind of wire should I use for doing the tip down goop quench? I was planning on a coat hanger. My goop(engine oil) should be good if brought up to ambient and the entire piece submerged until cool to touch?
-Tempering: after I harden it I need to wipe it all down and temper it. 3 trips is what the book said at 425F for a hour each go after the preheat on the oven. Air cooling between trips into the oven. I need to make rack for the knife to sit up like the book showed.
-Finishing: I'll save that for another day

I'll attach my trace out design to the thread.
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  #2  
Old 02-26-2013, 09:48 PM
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NJStricker NJStricker is offline
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Dave Canterbury is great at marketing himself, but I don't put a lot of stock in some of the things he does. I suspect he was trying to emulate Ron Hood, also a "survival celebrity" of sorts, who several years back did a video on neo-tribal knifemaking with Tai Goo.

Regardless, it sounds like you've read a little bit and have a general idea of where you are going with this knife making business. Here are some suggestions.

Steel--I suggest trying 1080 or 1084 steel instead of 1095. 1095 is a great steel, when you can get the heat treat just right. And, that is the problem for a simple set-up like you describe (e.g. using a magnet to check for critical temp). You can get a good result, but likely not great, with 1095 if you are only in the general temperature range at which you need to harden, and the "Goddard goop" likely won't cool the steel fast enough. With 1080 or 1084 you can get a better heat treat result in that it is more forgiving with simple setups (e.g. heat to non-magnetic, quench, temper).

Quenchant--forget about Goddard's goop, used engine oil, used transmission fluid, etc. First off, you don't want to be breathing in toxic fumes from quenching the steel, and you don't want to stink up the house when you go to temper. Several makers have had good results with Canola oil or peanut oil. Likely you have a buddy somewhere with a turkey fryer and old oil that needs to be swapped out.

Steel supplier--For small quantities like a piece just large enough to make one knife, try the knifemaking supply houses like Texas Knifemaker Supply or Jantz. Terry Mickley (usaknifemaker.com) is a maker/supplier that is now offering a "kit" that contains a bar of steel, handle material, adhesive, hardware, and leather and line--all the basics for making a knife and sheath. If you think you like making knives after finishing your first one (this is an addictive hobby--consider yourself warned!) then you can get larger quantities from Aldo Bruno (The NJ Steel Baron) or Kelly Cupples (you can search this site for his contact information).

Cutting your blank--once you have your scribed outline, if you don't have a metal cutting bandsaw, you can drill holes around the outside of the outline and then use a cold chisel to "connect the dots". Then, use a coarse file to file to shape. You mentioned a grinder. A belt grinder will work well if it is powerful enough, a stone disc grinder not so much.

Grinding your bevels--I didn't see that you mentioned this step, as you mentioned cutting out your blank and then going to harden. I don't know what kind of equipment you have access to, but there are some makers who do harden their blades before grinding the bevels. If you are limited to hand tools then you will make it difficult for you to file the bevels. Best to do that while the steel is in the annealed (softened) state, before going to harden and temper it.
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  #3  
Old 02-26-2013, 11:20 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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I will second the advice that you start with something like l080 or 1084. I think that USA Knife Maker Supply carries both. To start out I would not advise 1095 or the Cru Forge V that he stocks.

Forget about the Goddard's goop. It was formulated for the purpose of being able to carry in the trunk of a car and not have is slosh all over. Engine oil and transmission fluid can put out some fumes that are really not good for you so I agree Stricker, don't use it. Besides they tend to be on the slow side of cooling too.

You can use an angle grinder to nip away at the outline of you knife until you have it close and then switch to files to refine the outline.

You actually need to get your steel a little brighter than it was when it lost it's magnetism to harden the steel. Quench in warm oil. and for 1080 or 10845 I would temper at more like 400?. Tempering temperatures can vary with the alloy.

If you are going to use files to grind in your bevels I would get the edge down to about a half the thickness of a dime before hardening. Maybe even just a little less, but not much. You may have to use something like a diamond hone to put the secondary bevel on. You can use sandpaper or EDM stones to finish the blade after hardening. Normal files will not work for steel that has been hardened.

Another book that you might want to take a look at is pThe Master Bladesmith by Jim Hrisoulas. Don't be put off by the title, it's plenty simple enough for the beginner.

BTW, welcome to the board.

Doug


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Old 02-27-2013, 07:11 AM
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Well, NJ and Doug covered it well. Do go back and re-read Goddard's book inductively. He says a lot more than what you have gotten so far. Big 10x on Jim Hrisoulas's book as well.
There is a lot more science and physics to this than you will ever get from Cantebury's video.
I'm all for the 1084 as a beginner's steel, it will forgive you a multitude of sins and still come out OK. 1095 will not.
As Doug stated a magnet is only letting you know you are getting close to the right temp.....read some more. Test with canola oil have shown it has the best properties of a veg oil for HTng some of the simple hi-carb steels, but it must be warmed to around 110*-120* to do this. It will work great with 1084.
Drawing the temper in a toaster oven is done all the time......but you have to know what the real temp is in the oven. The guage/dial on front is hardly ever even close. A setting of 400* may vary between 300* and 500*. Use an oven themometer inside to get a better control over the heat. It will be cooler toward the front than the back, move the T-meter around inside and you will see. It's as much about the soak time as it is the temp on tempering. the thicker the blade geometry the longer the necessary soak time. Recommend a minimum of 2hr per cycle, 3 cycles are ok (no harm done) but not necessary with a simple hi-carb steel like 1084.
In short pick one good steel, study the heck out of it, use it until you get it "right".

Keep us posted on how things develope with your endeavors. We like to see results.


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  #5  
Old 02-27-2013, 07:25 AM
ramitupurs84 ramitupurs84 is offline
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I appreciate the hints. So I will go with the 1084 or 1080 and use warm canola oil to quench. I will try and upload my drawing tonight. I found the knife has website and have it bookmarked on my iPad before joining here. So I want to put a rough grind on it before hardening it sounds like. When I do the hardening am I hardening the entire piece.

I will check to see if I can find that book.
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  #6  
Old 02-27-2013, 07:31 AM
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If you do a complete emersion plunge...yes. So preform your blade to what you want, drill all holes, thread your tang (if through tang design), and finish to 220 or 320 grit at least. Deep scratches that are in hardenend steel are harder to get out by hand and also can produce stress points in the steel during the quench.
There are other ways to get around this with 1084 after HT'ng, but the above is the easiest.


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  #7  
Old 02-27-2013, 08:12 AM
ramitupurs84 ramitupurs84 is offline
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Here is the design:
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  #8  
Old 02-27-2013, 04:53 PM
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NJStricker NJStricker is offline
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Looks like a good, reasonable design for a first knife. What type of grind do you have planned?
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  #9  
Old 02-27-2013, 05:48 PM
ramitupurs84 ramitupurs84 is offline
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Great question asked. I'll counter and ask what would you do. I don't sharpen with stones I use one of those electronic jobbers. Sooooo. Knowing that what's your thoughts? I will do it the right way on this.

If I use a peanut type oil it won't flash on me. I watched YouTube and stuff on the quenching for a idea. I just don't want to end up in the burn unit.

When I temper and hardening what is the rule of thumb for the 1084. I know it changes I read up on that one for a hour tonight. I think I am sold on that 1084.
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Old 02-27-2013, 07:39 PM
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NJStricker NJStricker is offline
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You sharpen on an electronic jobber. . . oh man! You're killing me! OK--time for you to learn some new sharpening skill sets too.

As for the grind--without getting into too many of the variations, there are 3 basic types. Flat, convex, and concave (more commonly known as hollow-ground). Unless you have a belt grinder with a 8" or 10" wheel, you likely won't be doing a hollow grind.

Generally, when we talk about the "grind" we are talking about the geometry of the knife. There is a primary and secondary bevel. The primary bevel is the main taper of the blade, the secondary bevel is the bevel that you grind to form the cutting edge. The primary bevel is the one ground to be flat, convex, or hollow ground.

Personally, I would use a flat grind with a secondary bevel to form the cutting edge. It is the grind that was popular for most hunting knives up until probably the 1960's/1970's. That grind can be cut in with files and then cleaned up with a range of wet-dry sandpapers. It performs well, and is fairly strong.

There are other aspects to the geometry of the knife that can be a bit tedious to get into at this point. But, one thing that you do need to consider is the thickness of the bar stock that you plan to use. On the pattern that you posted, a knife made from 1/8" stock will perform differently than the same pattern and grind from 1/4" stock. My suggestion starting out would be to use 1/8" thick bar stock, especially if you use files to grind your bevels (you could also go thinner, say 3/32"). It gives you less steel to remove. You get to see results quickly, and if you do end up having to start over for one reason or another, you can quickly get moving on a second knife.

Unless you are working inside (not advisable) I wouldn't worry too much about the flash, whether using canola or peanut oil. You will get it even with peanut oil, and it doesn't last long. If you are only heat treating one knife at a time you can use a small volume of oil (1/2 gallon or so) and keep it in a large metal coffee can. Just keep a metal lid handy to snuff out the flames.

Last edited by NJStricker; 02-27-2013 at 07:41 PM.
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Old 02-27-2013, 08:42 PM
ramitupurs84 ramitupurs84 is offline
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I have a lot of power tools minus the podium type sander. My dad is a master plumber and a #######d builder. So I'm not too worried on that front. Simpler the better from a novice perspective is the best grind I want lol
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:18 PM
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Eli Jensen Eli Jensen is offline
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Its just my opinion, but in my opinion, Dave Cantebury is sort of an idiot
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Old 02-28-2013, 05:33 AM
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Love it when you pull your punches and go "soft" Eli!

The flash from the quench is usually a soft feathery flame - not much heat and not very agressive and short lived. If it's a strong forceful flareup you got your steel way too hot for a proper hardening quench. Use a long handled pair of tongs or pliers and keep soft tissue back away from over the quench. Learn to hold the blade to be quenched by the handle at a right angle and nothing of consequence will be over the flame. Just wear a glove if you are worried about your knuckle hair.
***ALWAYS WEAR SAFETY GLASSES!***

Suggest you do a "Dry Run" first without the heat and get the steps figured out. Make sure you have plenty of room to complete the process without hinderance or trippage in the picture. And, if there is no adventure in your life, place a fire extinguisher within ready reach.

As far as the grinds go NJ covered pretty well. Sure, there are a lot more variations and technical explanations, but learning to do a well executed flat grind right should be more than enough to start with. Get it right and experiment with the more complex grinds when you have developed your skills further.

Just for the record, I do not disagree with Eli.


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Old 02-28-2013, 06:15 AM
ramitupurs84 ramitupurs84 is offline
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Well thanks for clearing the quench up for me.

As for Dave Cantebury goes I view it as such. I pick up on things I wouldn't of without reading it. I know this is how he makes his money too. I check out his website for the crap he uses that he sells. He lives by the single shotgun. Maybe $200 shotgun? However he has a $400 pack and almost $300 canvas parka. Some of the stuff they do on the channel is neat and other things I wished I didn't. It's entertainment while the wife watches the Bachelor or something.
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Old 02-28-2013, 06:56 AM
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Gary Mulkey Gary Mulkey is offline
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I'm glad to see that you are doing some research before jumping into your first. You will find that the H/T is going to be the most critical part of getting a quality blade. Once you have your blade H/T'ed & tempered, test it both for edge holding & toughness before permanently attaching the handle. 1084 is a forgiving steel and you can re-H/T it if you aren't satisfied with your first attempt. Something to concider before H/Ting your blade is to have a large enough container of oil that you can swish the blade back & forth within to help with the vapor jacket. [I also agree that this should be done outside.]

Just remember safety first.

Good luck & let us know how things turn out.

Gary


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