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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 09-06-2012, 10:59 AM
clivehamilton77 clivehamilton77 is offline
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Angles for Flat Grinding

I know this is a very Newbie question, but after searching for a while I have info overload.

I have a piece of 1/8" x 1 1/4" and some in 2" width 0-1 tool steel. I want to put a flat grind on it, but what angle do I start with and which angle do I subsequently use and finish? Am I asking the wrong question?

If it hurts or helps I am using the Bubble Jig which has translated pretty well into improving my freehand grinds. Thanks in advance guys.
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  #2  
Old 09-06-2012, 11:43 AM
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Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
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That's a question that I've heard a number of times, and the answer is......there really isn't a specific answer. There are so many variables that go into the grind, stating a specific angle is impossible. While it might not be what you want to hear, time and experience will let you develop a "feel" for the "right" grinds for YOUR knives.
While other might disagree, I personally feel that using any type of "jig" before a person learns to grind, is more of a hindrance then a help.

In essence, that's one of the reasons that custom knifemaking is a craft/art rather than a "manufacturing process"....it requires time, practice, and experience unless a person is only interested in making a KSO (Knife Shaped Object). It's all the nuances and learned skills that the maker applies that makes a custom knife what it is.


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  #3  
Old 09-06-2012, 11:51 AM
clivehamilton77 clivehamilton77 is offline
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Ed,

No, I appreciate the advice. Sometimes the best things to learn are the hardest to hear/digest. I feel the same way about the art vs. manufacturing. But as I said, I have info overload. A couple of years ago I just got a piece of steel and started grinding from my mind's eye and it was the one of the best "looking" knives that I had done.

I guess what I meant to ask was in general how far or how much do you have to step down the angle for flat grinding without getting into and specific degrees.

Thanks Ed and God bless
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  #4  
Old 09-06-2012, 04:45 PM
WBE WBE is offline
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Decide on the strength you want as far as spine thickness, then go from spine to edge. There is no set answer for your question. I also fully agree with everything Ed said, and would add, in my opinion, the practice of machining blades has already gone way too far. When knifemaking reaches the point that everything is done by jig and mill, it is no longer any different than a factory knife, with exception of choice of steel, price, and desired hardness.
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  #5  
Old 09-06-2012, 07:56 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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To add to what Ed said, it is also going to depend on what you want to do with the knife. A courser angle will decrease how well is slices but make it a better chopper. One the other side of the coin a finer blade will help the knife slice better but chopping could chip out the blade. Also there what kind of a secondary grind you put one the blade, if any. Even your choice of steels and how you temper the blade will determine how effective the angle that you put on your primary and secondary bevels will be. As Ed said, experience will tell. Make yourself a knife and use the heck out of it and see what works for you.

Doug


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  #6  
Old 09-08-2012, 06:30 AM
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As they say in the military.....situation and terrain. This is what Doug is talking about. You need to know what your intentions are as far as the finished blade. Too many makers have a "set" grind or angle for all the knives they make. You can spot them at the shows. A 2.5" crowbar made from nice damascus with fancy wood and fittings is still a lousy crowbar.
Design your blade geometry and heattreat around the intended use. One size does not fit all.
I also agree with Ed, jigs will limit your creative ability and stall your learning curve.
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  #7  
Old 09-08-2012, 05:09 PM
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I'm a newb also and I don't mean to question you guys but have u seen the bubble jig its not jig in the traditional sense in that it doesn't hold the knife in a fixed position it just attaches to the knife and has a level on it so that you can keep the angle the same by hand. I could be wrong but seeing as how you have to still control the grinding by hand and it just tells you if your angle is high or low I would think this would be a great learning tool for the beginner until they get used to holding the same angle without having to look at it.
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Old 09-08-2012, 10:47 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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I've seen it and have toyed with the idea of getting one to help judge angles. The problem is that you may have to change the angle at which you hold the blade to the grinder and that will throw the bubble off.

doug


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  #9  
Old 09-10-2012, 09:29 AM
clivehamilton77 clivehamilton77 is offline
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Thanks everyone for the advice. I do agree with Teejay in that I kind of thought the Bubble Jig as more of a helping hand than an outright jig. However, my opinion as a new guy carries as much weight as a feather, just my two cents. I have noticed that the more I use the bubble jig when I take it off and truly freehand I am much better at recognizing "angles." As far as angle of approach to the grinder, I have markings on my grinder that when I adjusted it I can then cross check with how I should hold my blade. Once again thanks everyone for the advice and this site has helped immensely in me starting this knifemaking. I can only imagine how better skilled "old timers" were without google. Much respect.
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  #10  
Old 03-20-2013, 07:36 AM
PietF PietF is offline
 
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Hi also from a newb, the width of the platen should be the same or less that the belt?
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  #11  
Old 03-20-2013, 09:37 AM
Imakethings Imakethings is offline
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My 32 cents:

15-20 degrees total, meaning each side is going to get ground between 7-10 degrees.
It's a good place to start, but it's going to change depending on what you are making. Lower angles (5-6 degrees) are what I'd expect for filet and razors. Moderate angles (7-9 degrees) are what I'd expect on most general use knives. High angles (10+ degrees) are what I expect on chopping and heavy use items like cleavers.

Keep in mind this is my own interpretation of what grind to use for what, it is by no means cannon or comprehensive, but it is a reasonable place to start.
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  #12  
Old 03-20-2013, 12:32 PM
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I worried about this at first, but I've found in the few blades I have ground that it's an issue that is worried about far too much. I've found that you almost always have to constantly vary the angle as you grind. For me it will go from a very obtuse angle, then to a roundish type blob, a more acute angle, a slightly better roundish blob, and so on. Keeping at a constant and exact angle throughout the entire process is impractical, maybe even impossible. I could see how the bubble level MIGHT be useful as a general guide to make sure you're not approching at an angle that's going to ruin it, but that's about it. I tried a home made angle jig at first. After I burned the first several tips off I realized I needed to vary the position as I went. To me feeling the blade on the belt is a lot more effective than concentrating on a visual angle. What your eyes need to be concentrating on is what the belt is doing to the steel instead of a bubble on a level being centered. Of course this is another opinion from a novice.
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  #13  
Old 03-20-2013, 05:03 PM
WBE WBE is offline
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I fully and totally agree with Ed Caffrey. I have no understanding or use for angle jigs with set degrees of angle. In the real world the important angle is the cutting edge. It just isn't that hard to grind a blade. If you want a strong blade, you go with a thick spine. You want a blade for thin slicing, and or flex, you go with a thin spine. In either case, if you want a full flat grind, you grind from spine to the desired edge thickness. It is that simple. If you want a saber grind, then you go with instinct, and what will be expected for the blade to be able to do well. If it doesn't work out as well as hoped for, then learn from that one and do the next better. You also consider the thickness at the termination of the cutting edge, as to what the blade is designed for. A chopper is thick, a slicer is thin.
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  #14  
Old 03-20-2013, 07:48 PM
cnich cnich is offline
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I have several wood blocks cut on a table saw different angles and I use the one that is right for the thickness used 1x4 for material and then cut at different angles
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  #15  
Old 03-21-2013, 10:00 AM
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cbsmith111 cbsmith111 is offline
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How about this? Use whatever jig you want for a few passes to start getting your bevel established then switch to free hand.
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