"The Magic Randall"

[Jacknola]

Ron, this knife was posted on another forum by Jesse Egnew, who ask for help dating it. Some experienced historians replied, and dated it to early 60s because of "the Johnson sheath,"which they apparently identified on the strength of the vertical randall stamp.

Stange sheath but with a west-facing stamp. Note the pointed end of the overcovering on the back. Unfortunately the blade covers the mid-part of the throat stitching on the back. I wonder if perhaps a second look at the probable date of this package is warrented?

Jesse Egnew

[BoBlade]

Hi Jack,

Nice charts! A great way to plot data points and make some statistical sense of what was going on. No way I could make those. IMO there had to be an overlap of Heiser and Johnson up until Bo was certain that Johnson could handle the load. What doesn't make sense to me right now is how Johnson could have made as many East facing BB sheaths as there seems to be out there in the timeframe that Gaddis allows this to happen (~ 6 months): "Gary discovers Johnson in the spring / summer of 1962 and baby dots are introduced in late '62 or early '63"!

Regarding Jesse's Model 7: It's very early 60's by the choil cut alone. I posted pics of several of these choil cuts earlier. The clincher is the horizontal keeper.

Best,

Ron

[Jacknola]

Ron, If we filled out the chart-overlays, I think we might find that there really aren't very many brown-button east facing stamp sheaths. I'm pretty sure that far more, even most, of the brown-buttons with a vertical stamp have the older, BB west-facing stamp.

Notice the number found on-line in pictures. Actually very few are BB-east, I could only find four ... and all have a distintive look to the construction. This oddity is what led me to look further into this (that and Gary Clinton's thoughtful post on the other forum about the need for a "new look" ... and this conversation abetted by your encouragement and input).

Without doing the math, I have an impression that the older BB-west (shorthand) with mid sheath keeper snaps, outnumber the BB-east stamps at least 5:1, maybe even 10:1. So by splitting the manufacturer of west-sheaths from the east-sheaths, you now have a manageable number of BBs made by Johnson, with added confidance because of the obvious similarity in construction of the BB-east with the early nickle-plated-snap east-stamped sheaths.

Furthermore, the older BBs with the west-facing stamp are virtually identical to the still older sheaths with a Heiser stamp. By accepting that they are indeed Heiser-made, the progression from Heiser to Johnson would become consistant, easily understood ... and best of all, would finally make sense.

There has been a low-grade ongoing discussion among the long-time, highly experienced historians speculating about the need to move the start date of Johnson's involvement with Randall back in time, and then further back in time, and then further, until the whole story starts to re-write known facts and history. Reading it all with new eyes, I began to think that the need to move the Johnson date back in time, with constant revisions (and contradictions), was mostly because of the firm belief in the community that any sheath with a vertical stamp was made by Johnson.

It makes much more sense to see those west-stamped sheaths as Heisers, using the Randall stamp. It clarifies everything and removes a lot of the contradictions. Of course this will invalidate a lot of the books and on-line posts that picture only the front of a BB and then identify it as a Johnson (with a resulting difficulty rationalizing knife age with sheath) based only on the vertical Randall stamp. Hence the story of the magic-Randall!!!!

Summary: The only way those BB, west-stamped, mid-keeper-snap sheaths are Johnson is if all the following is true:

(a) Mr. Johnson started making sheaths in 1960 (or earlier), and immediately made a lot of Heiser-look-alikes with mid-keeper snap;

(b)... He stamped them with a west-facing vertical Randall stamp, and then:...

(c)... He suddenly changed the brown-button construction in about 1963, introducing the edge keeper snap while simultaneously altering the Randall stamp orientation to vertical east;

(d)... He produced the new sheaths while simultaneously continuing to make sheaths with the old west-stamp characterics;

(e)... He even (possibly) transitioned away from BBs entirely to begin producing east-stamped baby-dot nickle plated snapped sheaths for certain easily dated knives, while also continuing to supply some west-stamp brown buttons for similar knives (re: your pictured "low S" knife).*

In pictorial form, If Johnson made all the Randall-stamped sheaths, the manufacture profile would have looked like this, an extremely stange business model to say the least.



When defined as above, is this at all likely? Isn't it far easier to see that Heiser produced lots of BB west-stamps until about '62-'63, when Johnson began producing first a few BB east-stamps - and then identically constructed baby-dot east-stamps? And doesn't that scenerio exactly fit what Gaddis researched and described? ... and doesn't it fit with the memories of Gary Randall himself?

By the way... the tendency to hold onto and rationalize a widly-held fundamental concept is common human nature. I've investigated serious offshore accidents caused in part by strongly held group-beliefs which led to contorted rationalization of contradictory facts ... including the Deepwater Horizon/Macondo blowout in the Gulf of Mexico.

Regards... Jack Williams

*I think we might be able to accurately identify the end of the Heiser supply by looking at "SS" and "low S" knives. These knives are pretty well identified in date. And I think we possibly have both such knives in BB west-stamped, BB east-stamped, and nickle-plated snap sheaths. But I think there may be no stainless "separate S" knives in BB west-stamped sheaths. If so, Heiser supply probably ended just before or during the "SS" era, before the introduction of "low S" blades. I'll look at some blades on-line and see if I can post a photo comparison.

[BoBlade]

Jack,

That was exactly my contention on another thread on another forum, but I received no support from the other guys who's opinions were respected. You've been able to give me some ammunition and I'm grateful.

A couple of other random thoughts:

1. Assuming Heiser was consistant with a West facing stamp, Johnson having an East facing stamp would be a easy way for Bo to tell who made the sheath. It's a bit baffling that this information was not "passed down" from the guys in the know.

2. Assuming Heiser was consistant in placing the retaining snap in the middle of the sheath, Johnson placing the keeper at the far right was another easy tell. This change was also a functional improvement: It was much easier to grasp and pull the tab when you wanted to unsnap it (You did not have to deal with the stone pocket interference). Most Johnson diagonal keepers terminated beyond the sheath.

Best,

Ron

[Jacknola]

Ron,

The Randall guys probably didn?t know or care about the difference - they were in the knife business, not the sheath business. The sheaths were being stamped at the sheath factory and the distribution people at Randall unpacked the sheath delivery boxes, shelved the product and when needed just grabbed a sheath, shipped the knife. It is easy to accept that almost no one in the Randall shop was aware of the changes, maybe didn't even know who was making the sheaths. Don?t underestimate the human nature to ignore details ? people in the grocery business likely don't know about changes in the Wheaties box.

[(add): In my experience, those looking for sheath information in Randall files are probably looking in the wrong place. We see this investigating offshore accidents involving sub contractors... you have to go to the sub-contractor to get the in depth background or info on his product, not the operator. The operator is essential just another customer.

Even the stamp itself - Mr. Randall possibly just drew a picture of a stamp he wanted and sent it to Heiser, who had the actual stamp made in Denver. That is why I was so interested to see if the stamp on the Heiser-west sheaths was a different size from the stamp on the Johnson-east sheaths.

The possibility of different stamps is still something that could be checked out with careful visual examination and measurements of actual stampings on the two sets of BB sheaths. I wouldn't be surprized to find a difference in the the stamps, Heiser/Johnson, because in fact there probably had to be two stamps made, probably at different times.]

What I wonder is ... why the Randall historians/experts who have handled 100s of knives never commented on the orientation of the stamp in conjunction with the change in construction including the keeper-snap location of the BBs with vertical stamp?

This "Grand Unification Theory" allows much more precise dating of many period knives just by identifying BB-weststamp being earlier than east stamp, regardless of manufacturer. For instance, perhaps the dates on John Gibson's great collection of model-1s can be revised with some additional precision. And it has some other fallout (such as easier ID of the newer-knife-put-into-older-sheath ploy). Also, we can now logically reverse-engineer the supply of sheaths to Randall.

What seems likely is that sheaths were delivered in bulk from Heiser ? say ? 50 model 1-8 sheaths in an order. If a bulk delivery was made just before the switch, there would be a surplus of those model Heiser sheaths after the switch to Johnson. These would have to be used up before being replaced by new Johnsons, hence overlap ? which is a decent explanation for a lot of mysteries.

I can?t find SS marked model-1 knifes in a Johnson BB east-stamp, though there are such in Heiser BB west-stamp and also a few in Johnson baby-dots. But simultaneously the SS model-2s were being shipped apparently almost exclusively in baby dot sheaths throughout the SS period.

Now at least there is a plausible explanation ... that the supply of Heiser model-2 west-stamped sheaths was low when the switch in manufacturers was made, requiring Johnson to make sheaths for model-2s early on. At the same time, apparently the model-1 BB-Heisers were stocked in sufficient numbers to last throughout the "SS" era, not requiring replinishment until after Johnson switched to nickel plated snaps.

By the time of the advent of the ?low S?, apparently most knives were sheathed in baby-dots. But,some Heiser west-stamp sheaths remained in stock for the models less in demand. Here is picture of Ron?s model-3 ?low S? knife in a (presumably) Heiser west-stamped sheath (which may be the last Heiser sheathed knife ever shipped). Next is another ?low S? model-4 and a (apparently) BB Johnson east stamped sheath from John Gibson?s collection. And for comparison showing the overlap of sheaths during this period, a "low S" model-1 in a Johnson baby-dot.



I think we can conclude that delivery of Heiser sheaths in the BB-west stamp-central keeper configuration ceased during or just before the ?SS? era, and the remaining Heisers for all models were depleted shortly after the advent of the ?low S.? It is also likely that certain models of Randall knives depleted their Heiser supply of sheaths earlier than others. We can also note that prior to the advent of "SS" kinves, most of the BB sheaths were being made by Heiser in a BB west-stamp configuration, though a few were being produced by Johnson in the BB east-stamp, edge keeper style.

I don?t post over "there" because of some lasting issues, one being that this discussion would likely have been cut short early on by some gratuitous, snarky, and arrogant personal comments and/or insults. I know, grudge holding is unattractive, but its hard to eradicate ... which is a failing of mine I'm trying to work on. Feel free to use any thoughts and supporting pictures I've posted as you wish.

I'll get great pleasure if it turns out a theory about an interesting mystery becomes considered or accepted - which can only happen if advanced by highly respected peers in this small community.

Regards.
Jack Williams

[Jacknola]

I have had a blast in this conversation, and in the process learned, and have been taught, a lot. Starting with ...

(1)... repair of a cracked, pinned wooden handle on a knife/sheath of indeterminate 1950s-early '60s age, which fathered...

(2)... the story of the magic-Randall, using Ron's wonderfull explanation of blade shape progression, to explain age contradictions in the magic-Randall knife/sheath combo - the point of the magic-Randall story. This then led to...

(3)... Ron's ground-breaking essay on the progression of pins in Randall handles, which transitioned to a ...

(4)... discussion, and eventually the posting of a group portrait of what may be the only five pinned wooden-handled Randalls known. This neatly incorporated Gary Clinton's post of his pinned, ebony-handled model-1 and spawned...

(5)... a detailed pictorial description/comparison of three ebony-handled model-1s, all in brown-button sheaths, two of which have pinned handles (thanks to Gary for the picture of his knife)... to again address question of age of magic-Randall package. More magic-Randall banter followed ... but more importantly the study produced a spin-off directly leading to...

(6)... the discovery of stamp orientation and sheath construction differences within a narrow 1960-1963 brown button period time span. Finally ...

(7)... the "Grand Unification Theory" which offers a logical explanation for this transition period. This discovery will allow fine-tuning the dating of a whole bunch of old knives, not to mention completely changing the basics, attributions, and terminology used in most of the books, posts etc., that address Randalls from the period.

That is a darn productive set of outcomes from an entertaining civil discussion, before mentioning Erroll Flynn and early "recons", Frank Frazetta, the Raffles Hotel, crocodiles, silverware storage case conversion, Randall-stamped beer huggies, cold war history, etc. Much of this is due to Ron's open-mindedness and willingness to share. But it is also due to others, David "Moosehead" especially, who exhibited supreme tolerance and lighthearted acceptance, even encouragement, of fantasy and flights of fantasia by ... moi.

One lesson for me? You never know where someone's BS is going to lead ...

Thanks all.

[10EC]

Well done Jack....it all makes perfect sense to me, even though I don't collect the older RMK's with the sheath's you were discussing.

Just my opinion but I believe all those RMK 'expert's' should read your conclusion's and consider the possibility of a better understanding in dating these early sheath's.

[Moosehead]

Thank you Jack!

This thread has turned out to be one of the most entertaining, fascinating and educational threads about Randall knives that I have seen on any forum past or present.

I hope there will be more... After all, "It ain't over 'til it's over".

Cheers!

David

[BoBlade]

Hi Jack,

I like your term "grand unification theory" If it's accepted by Randall collectors and historians, a big gap in Randall knowledge will have been fleshed out.

In general, I agree with all your points except one: I think the transition occurred a bit prior to the "SS" era (Which I believe this was mid '63 to early '64), if we accept Gaddis' timeline for Johnson's involvement: "Gary discovers Johnson in the spring / summer of '62 and baby dots were introduced in late '62 to early '63.

I appreciate you letting me share your discovery with others in another venue. I know there has been a lot of rancor there over the years, but if you want to educate the general Randall population, that's where you have to go at this point uin time.

I've had a ton of fun on this thread and learned something in the process. It doesn't get better than that.

Best,

Ron

[Jacknola]

Ron, I hope you convince the community, because I think it is a solid case. But don't be surprised if the proposal has to run the usual gaunlet ...

...dismissal; question facts; alternative explanation to hold onto the status quo; anger; appeal to authority (pull rank); question credential of the person proposing, etc., ... before you get to acceptance.

This might be "a process" regardless of the depth of facts, because even the "Certificate of Authenticity" for your model-3 low S, knife pictured above now has an error ... it identifies the sheath as "Johnson brown button," when it should be id'd as "Heiser, Randall-west-stamp, brown button" or some other agreed upon terminology.

But, maybe those guys are more open than I think, especially if the proposal comes from within the community. I think Gary Clinton may already be thinking along this line too, and he might prove to be an ally. If I can help without being directly involved, e-mail me.

Here is one more thought I added to a post (above), but I think it is important enough to stand alone:

[(add): In my experience, those looking for sheath information in Randall files are probably looking in the wrong place. We see this investigating offshore accidents involving sub contractors... you have to go to the sub-contractor to get almost any in-depth or background info on his product, not the operator. The operator is, in effect, just another customer.

Even regarding the stamp itself: - Mr. Randall possibly just drew a picture of a stamp he wanted and sent it to Heiser, who had the actual stamp made. That is why I was so interested to see if the stamp on the Heiser west sheaths was a different size from the stamp on the Johnson east sheaths.

The possibility of different stamps is still something that could be checked out by measuring actual stampings on the two sets of BB sheaths. We may find a difference in the size or shape of the stamp, Heiser/Johnson, simply because in fact there proabably had to be two stamps made, possibly at different times, different places.]

If a check of the stamps shows a consistant difference, it would be another clincher argument, though in my mind the case is already proved. Of course they could be virtually identical, if Randall had the stamps made.

Thanks again for your professional input, but equally important your patience and positive encouragement. This is proof of the effectiveness of positive vibs and an open-minded toleratant friendly attitude. It was a key to the flow and without it, the whole line would have had a premature train wreak ...

Regards, Jack Williams

PS: Sorry, keep thinking of additional fallout. It may be that Johnson was required to alter the stamp orientation because of presentation copyright trademark. There is precedent.

When Magnolia Petroleum was finally absorbed into the creation of Mobil Oil in the early '50s, the symbol of Magnolia was the red Pegasus (actually known as "the flying red horse"). That symbol became a logo of Mobil... but the new parent company later had to change the orientation of the horse for copyright or trademrk reasons, even though they were a sucessor company. The Magnolia's flying red horse jumped to the left... Mobil's flying red horse was simply changed so that it jumped to the right, the only change made in the logo symbol. Regards

[BoBlade]

Hi Jack,

Yes, it's going to be interesting to see how the seasoned Randall guys react. There may be some (or likely a lot of) initial skepticism, but as they start looking at more knives and BB sheaths, they will see there a definite pattern emerging that defies coincidence: Very early 60's knives in BB's with West facing logos and middle of the sheath retainer placements, and early to mid 60's knives in BB's with East facing, far right retainer placements.

I'm pretty sure that Bo had the Randall logo stamp made up and sent to Heiser, and when he needed to send a stamp to Johnson he used the same artwork. Therefore, I don't expect to see any dimensional differences in the two stamps. However, before I break the news I will take some measurments to be sure.

Best,

Ron

[jeepster]

Jack and Ron I posted on another forum a comment about my Randall Mod. 11 w/ pinned Ivory handle in a BB sheath w/ a horizontal keeper strap and the logo facing west. Wish I could post a photo but I simply don't know how. I always thought this was a Johnson but am now leaning towards Heiser. I asked the original owner for a date of purchase. The best he could come up with was late 50's to early 60's.....and he was a Randall dealer. He actually took the ivory while on safari in Africa and sent it to Randall to put on this mod. 11. This has been a fascinating read! Love your stories Jack and would really like to hear more.
Thanks.
Jeepster (Ronnie)

[Jacknola]

Hi Ronnie ?

I now have some clues that the Randall stamp may have started to be applied to the Heiser sheaths in early 1959, surely in 1960, concurrent with the change in Heiser stamps to Heiser-Keyston-Lichtenberger which occurred on all Heiser products, especially gun sheaths, about that time. I'm continuing to research looking for smoking gun. Incidentally, the original H. H. Heiser stamp trademark has now been acquired, in 2012, by Winchester Arms company because it was previously abandoned... just an interesting developent but one that has other implications. Anyway ...

Posting a picture on any chat board is easy. There are undoubtably other ways to do this? but here?s how I do it. Follow these steps:

I. First down load the picture from your camera to your computer.

Usually this is easy.. connect camera to computer with USB cord. Click microsoft symble, extreme lower left, then click ?computer.? Click symbol for camera. Click download and indicate pics you want to download, name the folder, and download. Pics are now in the folder.

II. Next upload the pictures from your computer to a public photo share site. I now use Photobucket. Here?s how?

1. Go to this site, http://photobucket.com/ open a personal site by clicking ?register? and making a name and password. There is no charge.

2. Click ?upload.? A box will appear with ?browse.? Clicking browse will open you computer registry. Go to the picture on your computer and double click it, it will upload to photobucket.

3. On photobucket, click ?view library,? find the picture you uploaded that you want to paste onto a chat board and click on it to bring it up. On the right you will see three reference ?Links to share this picture.?. Click the box that reads ?Img? and it will read ?copied.?

4. Paste that code into whatever site you want to post a picture on? voila. If I have multiple pics I want to post, I will save those individual ?imgs? in a word document, rearranging them with the commentary before posting the lot on the chat board. lOf course, doing that has a typically Microsoft unnecessarily complicated twist however.

This is an example of how the code will read before you post it?. [URL=http??..[/URL]. If while in the word document you space after the last ?]? at the end of the code, it will highlight only the http portion of the code, and thus will not register as a picture in your on-line post. No problem. Before pasting the lot from your word document, right click on the blue highlighted portion of the picture code in your word document, then click ?remove hyperlink,? and now you are good to post that code on line anad the code will appear as a picture.

HOWEVER? most pictures are huge and will be too big to post on a board. I recommend reducing the size of the picture you put on photo bucket before uploading it or it will be too large for most chat boards. I find that a picture limited to about 600 pixels in width is about perfect for a chat board, and for ?neatness of presentation,? I adjust size of all my to-be-posted-pictures to that size.

Don?t know how to do it? Easy. There is a way to reduce size on Photobucket, but it has some flaws. So I do it before I upload the pictures.

First, find your picture on your computer, click ?open ? on top bar. Click open with ?Microsoft office? on the drop-down. Click ?edit picture? on top bar. Click ?resize.? Click the button that says ?percentage of original x ?.? ?100? will appear in the little box immediately below for 100 percent, while below that you will see the width and length of the picture in pixels. Now click down arrow for reducing (or up arrow for enlarging) percentage, watching the pixel size change until you get to about 600 pixels in width. Click ?save as?? and add a small c to the picture name-for compressed or something - and click save. Then exit the pic on your computer ... click "don't save" because you have already created a reduced-sized copy of the pic. This preserves the original picture in its original size while creating a re-named, reduced sized copy. Up load that reduced-size copy picture and post ihe img code on the chat board.

By the way? to post a picture you have seen on line, right click on the picture, click ?save as? name it and position it where you can find it. Adjust size, then upload it to your photobucket site, etc. All this seems complicated and requires multiple steps, but it is a good tool to have to present your thoughts and will become second nature once done a couple of times.

I look forward to seeing pictures of your knife. It will be a valuable additon to the data base. Regards, Jack

[jeepster]

Thanks Jack....we will see what happens.
Ronnie

[jeepster]

No.....sorry Jack. I just can't speak "Greek." thanks for your help anyway.
I will take the knife to my office and get one of my staffers to take a picture and give it a shot.