Getting pieces cut out someplace else

[Frank Niro]

Do you feel this is the way to go and all it does is avoid your buying the equipment and learning how to use it? So then, you do some assemly and finishing work just like working on a kit knife. Does the making of the parts in your shop make the finished knife better? What if you were to get some factory to make the knives for you and you placed your name on them and then put them out for sale as you having made them? Is it just the finished quality that matters and how it gets to that state has little to do with selling it? It is obvious that a lot of folders being sold by some makers have had a huge helping hand in preassembly preparation. Should it all be left to the buyer to decide and choose what is completely made by a maker and if not, what can be done to slow some of this down. I have had one make tell me that by having this one part cut out by a specialty company is inexpensive and saves him hours of work. Why not have all parts cut out and pre shaped? Perhaps, it just comes down to what each person wants to do and goes with. I would like to hear your ideas on this growing attitude of having someone else do some of the work with some pretty high teck equipment and then claim the credit for all of the work with a possible simple statement if someone asks, saying I don't want to spend the money to buy the equipment to do that with just now. Thanks for your remaks either for or against the farming out of work other than engraving and scrimshaw which have always been there. Frank

[Omega]

depends on the part (and how many)? i dont have a bandsaw nor do i intend to get one any time soon, now if i need a sheild for a small folder i see no problem asking some one to cut me a sheild and send it to me then one the discription of the knife id put 'sheild by.....' just like you do when some one engraves your knife. now if someone get their blade laser cut or even simple cut out somewhere else thats another story. its like that one episode of occ (the fireman bike) every part was outsourced occ put it all together then stamped occ on it. but in the end it comes down to what you can take credit for then look in the mirror and also who can catch you at it. if this become the trend we all can save some time go buy a $50 knife at the mall grind off the name etch ours on it and do some filework and call it our own.


bill

[Ray Rogers]

Are you a knife maker or a knife manufacturer?

Having parts made that way should only be considered if you are a full time maker (my opinion) because only then is time a critical factor. It literally could make the difference in making a living and starving. Even so, you MUST make a full disclosure to any prospective customer as to how the knife was made. Generally, you will find that people who buy custom or hand made knives expect them to be exactly that if they are going to pay the big bucks. Knives with manufactured parts have been referred to as Mid-Tech lately. Such knives can be every bit as good and functional and attractive as a fully hand made knife but they usually have to be sold at a lower price. Of course, with less time in the knife, selling at a lower price isn't a big problem.

Where is the advantage to a hand made knife? Why would someone buy your handmade knife over a really good factory knife? Answer those questions and then decide what the difference would be in your Mid-Tech knife and a knife sold by Benchmade whose knife parts are all cut out by machines but are assembled and fitted by hand. When you can define the difference you'll know what to do about your original question......

[SharpByCoop]

Frank your post smacks of an agenda. This one gets rehashed every year or so.

Let me use an inaccurate example: Frank, it takes you 3 hours to profile, drill and shape a rough blade and liners from stock. Sending YOUR design out to get this labor intensive and low-engineered work now saves you 2 1/2 hours.

All of a sudden you can either: spend 2 1/2 hours more on even better filework on your knives to sell at the same cost, or you can finish them up similarly with all your trimmings and sell them for less.

Letting your client know that you can't be bothered spending that much time on non essential and time consuming work, when in the end they probably are more interested in your designs, and fit and finish, rather than some plasma cutting machine that cuts out blanks somewhere else.

As Ray aptly pointed out--knifemaking IS a business. You need to figure out what will keep you afloat.

(The film guys initially despised digital cameras because it took a LOT less time in the long run. Now look what's happened.)

Coop

[Frank Niro]

So, the differences are do I want to make more money per hour, and am I comfortable with what I'm doing? Why is there a need to tell the buyer anything about how it is done? He is paying for what he sees and if he is willing to put out the money then where is the problem? This is not my way to go but I am interested in what I call the "manufactures" approach. More comments please. Frank

[DaWulf]

Let me toss something in the mix here. What if that plasma cutter/cnc/whatever is in your own shop? You are still doing the time saving bit, but now it's at ground zero rather than at Ralph's Slice'em-N-Dice'em down on the corner. How would this differ?? I know of makers who do this and still call them 'hand made'. To me neither should be classified that way, yet they are doing it and getting the big bucks. I'm all in favor of using whatever tool is available, but there has to be a line somewhere.

Wulf

[SharpByCoop]

Originally Posted by Frank Niro

So, the differences are do I want to make more money per hour, and am I comfortable with what I'm doing?

Substitute the word 'or' to replace 'and' . It truly is a choice you make, and need to feel comfortable doing.

Why is there a need to tell the buyer anything about how it is done?

At that point, then you are into deceptivity. As a collector, I am purchasing the knife as a representation of the maker's character. I don't care if he uses Plasma cutters to profile the easy labor. I only care that he told me.

*IF* he has told me about it's construction in honesty, then I will wish to own his work. If he engages in deceptivity then I don't want to spend money on a *'handmade' knife from him. There are thousands of others looking for my business.

Originally Posted by DaWulf

Let me toss something in the mix here. What if that plasma cutter/cnc/whatever is in your own shop? You are still doing the time saving bit, but now it's at ground zero rather than at Ralph's Slice'em-N-Dice'em down on the corner. How would this differ??

It's the same thing, only even better for them.

I know of makers who do this and still call them 'hand made'. To me neither should be classified that way, yet they are doing it and getting the big bucks. I'm all in favor of using whatever tool is available, but there has to be a line somewhere.

This begs the question once again of 'where is the line?' Why is that plasma cutter any different from a drill press. That's a power tool, too. Why is a bandsaw more acceptable than plasma. One is simply faster and more efficient than the other. I want work that is the best quality from a maker. I don't care how he achieves it.

Generally the folks who are in opposition to this type of manufacture are those who may not have the resources to do so. In a capitalist society, you need to do whatever it takes to have more value than your competitor. Than may include a statement that your parts are completely hand-profiled and take more time to make. At least that will explain why you need to charge more...

And you client base may agree it is worth the extra. Stay focused on your market.

I like these threads. It's good to knock it around and get folks to open their minds a bit.

* handmade: using no power tools whatsoever. I don't think so....

Coop

[SharpByCoop]

Lest you think I am completely pro-machine, I will offer an example: If Wolfe Loerchner were to start using CNC instead of his handmade files to make his dramatic pieces, then I would probably not want one. At least at the same price he commands now.

There truly is value in more, OK I'll say it, handmade work. For some.

Coop

[Don Robinson]

I'd like to interject a different slant on Frank's question. The answers so far assume that the knifemaker is making knives to make a living or a profit.

There are more reasons for making a knife than just to earn money. For instance, I can earn more money per hour doing almost anything else other than knifemaking.

Coop, I think you can empathize with this statement: I make knives for my own personal satifaction and enjoyment. There's nothing else that gives me the great sense of satisfaction I get when one of my knives is taking shape and finally finished. It has my soul in it. It's a part of me. It represents the best I can do. I can find a way to improve it, but it's good enough to suit me.

Coop, don't you feel the same with your photos?

Annnddd,,,, if the buyer gets the knife in person, I watch the expression on his face and in his eyes as he takes it and handles it the first time. That's priceless, and money can't buy that!

Of course, I do enjoy making my knives for buyers, too. I love their new ideas and innovative thoughts and enjoy making them come alive.

Money is a very small part of my knifemaking. I do it because I want to.

[Ray Rogers]

Looks like I need to expand on some of my earlier remarks. To me the issue isn't whether or not a maker uses a plasma cutter or a bandsaw to profile his blades. There is absolutely no difference in that case. What is different is if the maker uses or has someone else use a computer controlled plasma cutter to profile his blades. That's manufacturing, and the maker probably isn't even doing it himself (few can afford the equipment). Again, it doesn't hurt the utility of the knife but it does affect whether or not the maker can honestly promote that knife has completely of his own creation and, especially, as hand made.

As Don said, money is a small part of why we do what we do. But, in my opinion, the reason why anyone would have parts cut out by some process like we're discussing is primarily based in financial considerations, i.e., he wants to save time so that he can make more money per hour. There's no other reason to do it. There is no reason why a hobbyist maker would need to have blades cut beyond just being lazy. A full time maker might feel compelled to do it but his reasons would have a financial basis. I've recently been struggling with this idea myself . If I do it, each of those blades will carry a different logo than my usual stuff to identify them as mid-tech and their pricing will reflect that fact........

[Frank Niro]

So, here is where I am at and most comfortable with . I do, what I want as best I can all the time with what equipment I have which is probably a lot less than some. I do not have a surface grinder or a milling machine, nor am I looking to get either. And like the man said what if you have the plasma cutter in your shop and have learned to operate it? I believe if the knife has high quality fit, finish, and stlying, what is the difference how, or who made it. If it's that good, then its that good. Frank

[SharpByCoop]

Amen. Frank, you keep on keepin' on. Make sure you let folks know you are 100% doing things slow and steady, and provide great service and communication in return.

That's the most important thing. I believe you.

Don, like Frank, you don't want nor need the higher production 'manufacturing' machines (as Ray labels them.) in your shop. It ain't about the extra bucks or time efficiency for you either.

My responses were directed to the pointed comments on those who DO choose to do it this way. Let them have at it. Hopefully there is disclosure from them all along the way. Just because a progressive maker decides to raise his bar doesn't make them a bad guy. This is a business for them and business is hardball.

You guys don't have this problem and unless you are getting your a** kicked financially by those who may, then don't worry about it.

Coop

[hammerdownnow]

I wish I had the machining skills of Chris Reeve. I would have to say every cut on this thing is machine made. Does that make him an any less skilled craftsman or artisan? The point may be, to have the ability to conceptualize and bring an object to fruition, rather than how it is done.

[Don Robinson]

Originally Posted by hammerdownnow

I wish I had the machining skills of Chris Reeve. I would have to say every cut on this thing is machine made. Does that make him an any less skilled craftsman or artisan? The point may be, to have the ability to conceptualize and bring an object to fruition, rather than how it is done.

No, Hammerdownow, mass production by Chris Reeve is an art form by itself. he is certainly a skilled artisan. I remember when he started making those one-piece knives using a milling machine and an indexer with a tailstock in his machine shop in South Africa. you ought to buy that one. They may be getting scarce now.

Let me say that I have all those skills, too. I can design anything my little mind conjures up, write CNC programs, design and make fixtures, etc., just as Chris does. Having someone else actually do the making, however, ie: an employee, and mass producing thousands of identical, nearly perfect knives wouldn't give me the pleasure I get from making a unique, one-of-a-kind knife using my own imagination, skills, and yes, even as Ray says, my sophisticated methods and manual machines to do everything myself using my skills and my own hands.

I'm a very heavily skilled tool and die maker and manufacturing engineer. I have a fully equipped machine shop, but no CNC or other automatic machines. I use a metal lathe, milling machine, surface grinder, and all kinds of machinery to make a knife. That's what I enjoy doing, but I use my own hands and mind to do it. I just let the machine do the work.

Even so, I'll put in an average of 20 hours not including 12 hours of heat treating on any knife. Those hours are most enjoyable, but the real thrill is the moment when it's finished.

Like the artisans here who use only hand tools to produce a knife, I certainly could make more money doing something else, but this is what I live my life for now. I never give a thought to the income produced.

After all these years designing and making hundreds of knives of all descriptions, I still give one away once in awhile to someone who can't afford to buy it, but appreciates the knife for what it is.

So I'll sum up by saying I could hire someone else to make the parts and make more money, but that ain't what I'm in the game for. To each his own.

[hammerdownnow]

I agree totally with you Don. Every person should follow his own path and do it in a way that brings them the most enjoyment. The thing that really gets me is the pressure put on to be unique and original. To me that only leads to those ugly fantasy blades. A well thought out and executed classic pattern is much more beautiful. Example, those little screw in button guards on the Reeves knife may appear to be an inovation, but I have a pic of a Sheffield Bowie with the same type of guard.