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The Folding Knife (& Switchblade) Forum The materials, techniques and the designing of folding knives.

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  #1  
Old 03-22-2004, 11:16 AM
offbyone offbyone is offline
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surface grinder for making folders

From everything I've read it seems like a surface grinder is almost essential for making a quality folder from scratch.

Can anyone with a reasonably priced option tell me what they use and why they like dislike it? I'm really only interested in using it to make folders, so this seemed like the right place to ask.
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  #2  
Old 03-22-2004, 12:26 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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In all the years that I spent drooling over surface grinders I was only able to find two that were "reasonably priced" Those are the one from Harbor Freight for about $1000 and the one from Grizzly for $1395.

I chose the Grizzly because I like their customer service and quality control. Superficially, it appears to be the same as the HF model but there are some differences. However, Ed Caffrey told me he has the HF model and has been very happy with it.

It is not absolutely essential to have a surface grinder in order to make folders but it is a big, big advantage. If you buy only precision ground blade materials you can get by without the surface grinder without too much trouble.....


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  #3  
Old 03-22-2004, 08:51 PM
PeterAtwood PeterAtwood is offline
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If you live in an industrial area or near one, check out machinery dealers. I picked up a nice old Boyar Shultz that even had a 110v motor on it (no need for a phase converter! ) for only $300. It needed a coat of paint really bad but it looks great now and it runs fine too. They had other machines there as well and I could have gotten several different ones in the $500-700 range. This was near Hartford, CT........


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  #4  
Old 03-23-2004, 08:02 AM
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Brett Schaller Brett Schaller is offline
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If you can get a surface grinder, grab it -- I'd love to have one myself. But if you can't, don't be discouraged. I've been making folders for years without one. If you have any specific questions about how to do something without one, post them here and I'm sure someone can help answer them.


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  #5  
Old 03-25-2004, 01:41 AM
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Kevin Wilkins Kevin Wilkins is offline
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If you're new to knifemaking, you might want to make a few folders before start investing in heavy, industrial machinery.

That said, I'd agree with Peter, try and get a good, used machine. My ABBA (no connection with the rock band!) was made in July 1942 and it's still kickin' it.

I consider a surface grinder essential for making folders for resale. Flat ground stock isnt that flat after heat treating and a tool makers surface grinder gives a much finer finish. Sure you can get by with a file and some emory boards too. But once you have a surface grinder, you'll fight to the death to keep it!


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  #6  
Old 03-25-2004, 09:45 AM
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Jeff Higgins Jeff Higgins is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by PeterAtwood
I picked up a nice old Boyar Shultz that even had a 110v motor on it (no need for a phase converter! ) for only $300.
OMG Peter, STOP GLOATING!!!! You are making me turn green again. LOL!

Hey Offbyone, Kevin has some seriously good advice. Do yourself a flavor and make a few folders before you even buy an SG. You'll be amazed at how your tastes and methods can change in this craft. Great folders can be made with no SG at all, in fact check out the website of my friend here for some inspiration:

http://www.carlsonknives.com/

Kelly doesn't use an SG, and his knives are pretty sweet! All he uses is a granite surface block.


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Old 03-25-2004, 10:16 AM
offbyone offbyone is offline
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granite blocks

Reading a few tutorials it seems like the stuff I was scared about can be done with careful use of a micrometer and bench or belt grinder. I do feel the need for a totally flat sanding surface, however. A lot of people seem to use granite. Any ideas where to find some, and is there anything special I have to ask/check for to make sure its flat? I also had the idea of using a piece of aluminum, since I read somewhere thats supposed to be really flat. I was thinking about ordering a half square foor or so chunk from onlinemetals.com. Would this do? Also, they offer both 'extruded bars' and 'sheet/plate'. Both come in 1 inch thick sizes, which seemed about right to me. Not sure if one is flatter than the other. Also, this is 6061-T6 if that matters. thanks!
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  #8  
Old 03-25-2004, 06:04 PM
Mail4Tim Mail4Tim is offline
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What you are looking for is called a surface plate. You can do a search at almost any of the tool supply houses like Enco, MSC, etc. The price will vary by by grade (flatness) and size but a 9 x 11 grade B should be about $15 or so. There are other ways of getting a granite block but unless you are buying one that is graded you have no idea what the flatness is. This could cost you more in the long run.

Tim
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  #9  
Old 03-25-2004, 09:35 PM
Frank Niro Frank Niro is offline
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Well here is what works for me, and it is just what you now wrote, which is the belt grinder, micrometer and a surfacing plate. My surfacing plate is a 20" X 26" piece of that artificial marble that is now used for counter tops, that has been surface polished. No it probably isn't as hard as the granite thing but I sure haven't seen a problem created by that. I know of two makers that can pass a piece of stock say for a folder blade between their fingers and feel it is within a couple of thousanths one end to the other. I can see a difference of that much with my optivisor in use. Of course you still have to use the micrometer a lot. A friend of mine who has been making knifes full time for many years started to make folders . I was happy to help him with anything he asked of course. He did get a surface grinder. He knew I was still thinking about one . Because of association through a mutual friend, dealer, he has seen a lot of my folders. He just recently said to forget about getting a surface grinder. They won't do heavy work and the fine work they will do has to be done right and very slowly. The makers who have attatched a belt grinding system to their machines seem to do much better. Go ahead with a folder that you want to do, see what happens, ask for help when you want it, and then see how you made out. Frank


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  #10  
Old 03-25-2004, 10:17 PM
offbyone offbyone is offline
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surface plates

Thanks everyone, this is just what I was looking for. I'm also no longer concerned about not having a surface grinder. Can someone explain what the Grades mean (AA, A, B) and why I might or might not want a ledge? I noticed that both Grade A and Grade B plates listed " Unilateral Tolerance ? .0001" (which is certainly close enough for me, I'm just curious). After looking at some of the Grade A prices I didn't bother checking out Grade AA, I'll tell you that much. Its actually the non power tools that I don't really mind spending money on. A granite block seems much less likely to fail than a motor made in china (or anywhere, for that matter)
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  #11  
Old 03-25-2004, 11:52 PM
zerogee zerogee is offline
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For a particular grade the overall accuracy measurement depends on the size of the stone (I think the accuracy per unit of length remains essentially the same for a grade regardless of size). So you have to compare stones of the same dimensions.

As you go from grade B to A to AA the accuracy required doubles for each grade step. At grade B for an 8x12" stone - 0.0001", A - 0.00005", AA - 0.000025". If they spec unilateral accuracy, then for this grade B stone they're saying that from the lowest point on the surface to the highest point there is no more than 0.0001".

Watch out for bilateral accuracy - if they say 0.0001" bilateral - that means the total deviation is actually 0.0002" (+/- 0.0001). This will be fundamental to your work, so get a stone from a well known specialist manufacturer - otherwise you don't really know what you'll get. Ideally you want them to provide a calibration certificate for your particular stone - traceable to N.I.S.T. -- the best makers do this for every stone they make.

Ledges are for attaching various measuring instruments to your stone - I doubt you'll have any use for that really (ledges also add to the expense and make the stone a bit weaker)

-- Dwight

Last edited by zerogee; 03-25-2004 at 11:55 PM.
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  #12  
Old 03-25-2004, 11:53 PM
Mail4Tim Mail4Tim is offline
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Here is how McMaster-Carr explains the grades:

Laboratory Grade AA- Use for exceptionally precise operations in constant temperature gauging rooms and metrology departments.
Inspection Grade A- Use for general work in quality control.
Toolroom Grade B- Use for checking work throughout the shop.

You will also find that there is a definite difference in flatness tolerance between the grades that they sell.

Tim
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  #13  
Old 03-26-2004, 04:55 AM
CDS CDS is offline
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Hello,
I have found the surface grinder to be indispensible! I will sell off my other equipment to get another one, if mine quits! Check out this auction. I purchased my first grinder from these guys and they are great to deal with. They always have good auctions.

And its a Harig, for $695! These are "Top Shelf" grinders and the base machine would cost you about $9K new. I would even buy it if I didn't already have one and was not looking for a mill!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...category=45021

Good Luck
Chris S.
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  #14  
Old 03-26-2004, 05:25 AM
offbyone offbyone is offline
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buy by price? [more surface plates]

So much great information, thanks again everyone.

So Enco and MSC each carry a single 9x12x2 grade B plate. MSC for $46 and Enco for $15. Both seem to be Unilateral +- .0001. Both are listed as 'imported' but both also have lip serice in the catalog about meeting federal standards. I think I'm going to get the enco one, unless someone can tell me something else I'm missing to make up the 3X price difference. (links at end of message)

One last question. Someone above mentioned that the difference between +- .0001 and +- .0002 is huge for folder work. I'm not one to argue accuracy around here, but is that really going to make a big difference on my 4 inch long liners?

Even $700 (for abovementioned 'cheap' surface grinder) is out of my league currently, so I'm going to stick to the surface plate idea for now.

Thanks again.

msc: http://www.mscdirect.com/IWCatProduc...duct_Id=363770
enco:
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?P...&PARTPG=INLMK3
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  #15  
Old 03-26-2004, 05:28 AM
Mail4Tim Mail4Tim is offline
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Keep in mind that Enco is a branch of MSC. What you are buying is probably the same part.

Tim
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