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Historical Inspiration This forum is dedicated to the discussion of historical knife design and its influence on modern custom knife work.

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  #1  
Old 04-16-2006, 05:19 AM
Jonathan Gage Jonathan Gage is offline
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Seax theory: Gebereht

There are various facts associated with the smaller waist attached seax that have led me toward certain conclusions I believe of good probability. Agreed, there are many different styles of seax, but here I will be commenting on the angled back seax, namely. the Gebereht blade.
From the artistic propensity of the Vikings, grind angle, and method of carry, I am led to conclude the angled back Seax would have had an elaborate carved grip and was a popular item at the time because it foremost served as the everymans tool whose secondary function was that of a weapon. The larger Scramaseax weapon was a larger extention of the smaller tool redefined for a more singlular purpose, that of fighting/killing. (anyone have dates of the earliest knife seaxes as compared to that of the longer scramaseaxes? Did the smaller seaxes precede the larger weapons, were they always concurrent?)
The shape of the Gebereht blade creates different grind heights between the spine of the knife and the edge thus producing cutting edge angles that decrease from bolster to tip. This would have allowed an area of the knife closer to the grip to be better suited for chopping, areas closer to the tip for cutting, slicing, skinning, and a sharp tip for puncturing leather. In addition, it could be used as a weapon.
This Seax was also to be carried sideways across the waist with the handle sticking out to the right and the edge of the blade was to be pointed upwards. It strikes me as an inefficient way to unsheath such a blade if it were to be used as a weapon.
The Vikings would have carved onto their wooden/bone handles. If they went so far as to carve onto their chairs, wagons and combs, their knives would have also been so honored.
It is my opinion that Seax knives made without elaboratly carved wooden/ivory/bone handles would be lacking an element the Vikings would have used extensively to honor their knives. It's my mission to create Seax knives with handles elaboratly carved with migration period art to provide an extra level of realism.
Blade theory I am still open minded about and I welcome any comments.

Jonathan Gage
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Old 04-16-2006, 10:09 AM
Jeff Pringle Jeff Pringle is offline
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'Sax' and 'Seax' just mean 'knife' in Old Norse and Old English, so they probably came into fashion when people started speaking those languages - modern folk like to say 'seax' like it means something, and I'm not sure it does? I guess it means 'medaeval-looking knife' these days?
Can you post a photo of the 'Gebereht ' blade?
I totally agree, unadorned handles on Viking-age gear are about as likely as un-drunk mead at the end of the feast - not bloody likely!
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  #3  
Old 04-16-2006, 12:24 PM
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I'm going to have to look up my source, but it is alleged that decorative pattern-welding on seaxes long outlasts that of classic double edged Viking Age swords. That would indicate an emphasis on them as more than functional. Now whether that's ceremonial, indications of status or what I don't know...

I'll hit the books later.


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Old 04-16-2006, 03:07 PM
Jonathan Gage Jonathan Gage is offline
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Here is a pic of the Gebereht blade with an inscription on the side that translates as "Gebereht owns me". I have also attached samples of handles I designed for swords and use on my Seax blades.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg gebereht.jpg (12.1 KB, 56 views)
File Type: jpg sword grip.jpg (20.6 KB, 45 views)
File Type: jpg Oseberg Lion 3.jpg (20.5 KB, 55 views)
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  #5  
Old 04-16-2006, 04:07 PM
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The Oseberg Lion is nice.

There is a historical example of a decorated metal knife handle. I'll have to find it.


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Old 04-16-2006, 05:19 PM
Jeff Pringle Jeff Pringle is offline
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Nice handles, very Viking!
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  #7  
Old 04-17-2006, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Gage
There are various facts associated with the smaller waist attached seax that have led me toward certain conclusions I believe of good probability. Agreed, there are many different styles of seax, but here I will be commenting on the angled back seax, namely. the Gebereht blade.
From the artistic propensity of the Vikings, grind angle, and method of carry, I am led to conclude the angled back Seax would have had an elaborate carved grip and was a popular item at the time because it foremost served as the everymans tool whose secondary function was that of a weapon. The larger Scramaseax weapon was a larger extention of the smaller tool redefined for a more singlular purpose, that of fighting/killing. (anyone have dates of the earliest knife seaxes as compared to that of the longer scramaseaxes? Did the smaller seaxes precede the larger weapons, were they always concurrent?)
The shape of the Gebereht blade creates different grind heights between the spine of the knife and the edge thus producing cutting edge angles that decrease from bolster to tip. This would have allowed an area of the knife closer to the grip to be better suited for chopping, areas closer to the tip for cutting, slicing, skinning, and a sharp tip for puncturing leather. In addition, it could be used as a weapon.
This Seax was also to be carried sideways across the waist with the handle sticking out to the right and the edge of the blade was to be pointed upwards. It strikes me as an inefficient way to unsheath such a blade if it were to be used as a weapon.
The Vikings would have carved onto their wooden/bone handles. If they went so far as to carve onto their chairs, wagons and combs, their knives would have also been so honored.
It is my opinion that Seax knives made without elaboratly carved wooden/ivory/bone handles would be lacking an element the Vikings would have used extensively to honor their knives. It's my mission to create Seax knives with handles elaboratly carved with migration period art to provide an extra level of realism.
Blade theory I am still open minded about and I welcome any comments.

Jonathan Gage
Bali Forge
Sorry about the long quote boys.
I noticed 3 or more threads with the word 'Seax' in the title.
I noticed this business about 'scramaseax' being LONGER than a seax.
According to the linguistic delving I've been doing in my research (which is far easier than actually MAKING something)
'Scrama' means 'eating'. Scramaseaxes were tiny "eating knives" in relation to a 'hadaseax' or 'langseax' In fact we still use a scramaseax alomst everyday, though we now call them 'paring knives'

I bring this up not to be petty or show off that I think I know something,
but to try to illustrate a possible naming convention for various sizes of knife.

In order of size:
Scramaseax - Hadaseax - Langseax

At least this is what 2 years of casual internet research has led me to believe.....now to try to actually build something!
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  #8  
Old 04-17-2006, 02:49 PM
Jonathan Gage Jonathan Gage is offline
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thanks, thats cool to hear. I think there maybe lots of misconceptions about the Seax type weapons that talking about would help clarify. I hope to get my Seax site up and running next week to start putting these ideas together on. If you have time I would value imput on the Seax Tang thread I started


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Old 04-17-2006, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Arthur Loose
I'm going to have to look up my source, but it is alleged that decorative pattern-welding on seaxes long outlasts that of classic double edged Viking Age swords. That would indicate an emphasis on them as more than functional. Now whether that's ceremonial, indications of status or what I don't know...

I'll hit the books later.
I had heard that the pattern-welding on late migration period seaxes was a leftover from when the smiths would try to forge weld bands of various metals together, but then have them fail. Their solution: "braid" (not literally....I guess) the metal bands together so that even if the weld failed the metal would still be interwoven in such a fashion that they couldn't separate.

Ptolemy, I think once wrote about the 'snakes in the steel' describing the use off patternwelding.

Okay, NOW I'm just talking because I heard something that I thought might sound helpful.
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  #10  
Old 04-17-2006, 11:34 PM
Jonathan Gage Jonathan Gage is offline
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LOL, the melody of ones voice is the music we each must bear


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Old 04-18-2006, 08:43 AM
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Dodd, I too am intrigued by the terminology. But, that theory of pattern-welding is dead wrong. It's an old one, but is a good illustration of the problem in academia wherein the "experts" assume people in the past were idiots in some way. I just love it when folks who have never used their hands try to pontificate on the finer points of a technical art. (the folks who made up that theory, not you! )

(Edited in the spirit of good nature)

Last edited by Alan L; 05-01-2006 at 09:28 AM.
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  #12  
Old 04-18-2006, 02:34 PM
Jonathan Gage Jonathan Gage is offline
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Here are the pages from my design book where i was coming up with the design so you could peek into my mind and see where I was coming from. Now that my personal pig headedness is subsiding... I could maybe put more curves into the mark, I had resisted that because it makes it look like a ####ed flower lol. but I could go there. i also extended the middle B bar to the left a bit. Does that help?

I am also sending you a pic of my Oregon 2003 table so you can see how there is little chance anyone can confuse our styles.

Kinife makers need to be stubborn, its the only way to ensure going the extra step toward perfection
Attached Images
File Type: jpg work book.jpg (68.5 KB, 27 views)
File Type: jpg flower mark.jpg (8.0 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg Oregon Show table- 2003.jpg (50.4 KB, 27 views)


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  #13  
Old 04-18-2006, 03:03 PM
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Feel free to leave your mark the way it is. It's nice.

My mark morphs because I'm not totally satisfied with it, and I was initially insistent on using an actual hot-stamp. Now that I carve it, and soon will inlay/chisel it, I will have the freedom to settle it firmly.

Carving is one of the natural progressions I have been meaning to explore after getting a grasp of pattern welding & bladesmithing; and I agree with your assessment that Seax handles were carved. There will be overlap... but then it's a traditional form so there should be. I'm personally cultivating an Urnes/Nouveau style, as I feel that industrialism disturbed an otherwise nice evolution around the turn of the last century and I want to pick that train of thought back up. I also want to say that I'm glad you are reclaiming the Fylfot. It is certainly an element in my choice of marks.

Check out Don Fogg's forum: http://forums.dfoggknives.com/

And the Carving Path forum: http://www.thecarvingpath.com/

There's a few folks picking up on the style, and dare I say it, revival of European mythology & symbolism, especially when it comes to blades. It's healthy for folks to be proud of their heritage and it does not equal disdain for that of others... This is hard for some people to grasp, but polytheistic thought actually necessitates it.

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Knife makers need to be stubborn, its the only way to ensure going the extra step toward perfection.
Don Fogg says this in his forum every time there's conflict. It is absolutely true.


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Last edited by J.Arthur Loose; 04-20-2006 at 09:23 AM.
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Old 04-18-2006, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Dodd, I too am intrigued by the terminology. But, that theory of pattern-welding is dead wrong. It's an old one, but is a good illustration of the problem in academia wherein the "experts" assume people in the past were idiots in some way. I just love it when folks who have never used their hands try to pontificate on the finer points of a technical art. (the folks who made up that theory, not you! )

You know, I'm so ignorant at this point, I hadn't thought of that angle on it this time.
However, I fully entirely agree with what you mean, and will endeavour to research this further. I'm really glad in having posted what I did, I at least got some good direction from it. THANKS! ;-)
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Old 04-18-2006, 03:29 PM
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Yo Dodd.

Thanks for sitting through all that.

I think the current idea is that there were pattern welded Seaxes being produced beyond the period where homogenous blades were very easy to produce by comparison, so they must have have held some non-functional value.

Not that I can remember where I read this.


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