MEMBER ITEMS FOR SALE
Custom Knives | Other Knives | General Items
-------------------------------------------
New Posts | New PhotosAll Photos



Go Back   The Knife Network Forums : Knife Making Discussions > Custom Knife Discussion Boards > Knife Making Discussions > Historical Inspiration

Historical Inspiration This forum is dedicated to the discussion of historical knife design and its influence on modern custom knife work.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-02-2004, 06:25 PM
sjaqua's Avatar
sjaqua sjaqua is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Townsend, TN
Posts: 606
Send a message via ICQ to sjaqua
Need Info on the Gladius Hispania

As the subject suggests I need info on the Roman Gladius Hispania or "Spanish sword". I have pretty much decided that the first sword I make will be in this pattern. In part because that is where the iron age sword begins its evolution (swords are actually a bronze age invention). And in part because I am in contact with several roman historical reanactors.

They have said that very little information is available on this style of sword (actually two styles 'Maintz' and 'Pompeii') and now I believe them. I have found very little information on the web and even less in my own library.

I can only hope someone in this forum can point me it the right direction.

I have the three examples from the british museum with limited documentation. And those are the only historic examples I have. Pointing me at other historic examples would be best. Recommedations for books on the subject will be taken with heart felt thanks


__________________
Scott B. Jaqua
http://www.hagersonforge.com
http://hagerson.livejournal.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The most important right of all, is that of Free Speech. With out that, all your other rights will soon be taken away. So, I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend until death, your right to say it!

Last edited by sjaqua; 03-02-2004 at 06:28 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-02-2004, 07:30 PM
Chuck Burrows's Avatar
Chuck Burrows Chuck Burrows is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Durango, Co
Posts: 3,671
Try using - gladius hispaniensis - as the search term in Google.

Here's a link to an ancientworld.net forum dealing with Rome and Roman weapons - quite a long dissertation on the gladius - http://www.ancientworlds.net/aw/Post/107955

Quote:
For hand to hand combat, the weapon of choice was the gladius hispaniensis, a short stabbing sword. It had a short, 50 cm two-edged blade, with a long point. It had a scabbard made of wood, leather and tin, that hung from the right side.
Later swords used by the Empire were still referred to as the gladius, but only superficially resembled them. These new swords had parallel sides and a shorter point. It probably weighed around a kilogram. They had a wooden handle, and were very well weighted. While the swords were designed for use as a stabbing weapon, they could still dismember opponents with their sharp sides. However, in training the stabbing approach was stressed, as a slashing blow had much less chance of fatally wounding an opponent, since he had bone and armor to protect him, but a stabbing thrust could punch through armor and kill.
The following link has a nice drawing showing the differneces in the various gladius styles such as the Mainz, the Hispaniensus, and the Pompei
http://translate.google.com/translat...UTF-8%26sa%3DN

Quote:
During long time one thought that the sword type "MAINZ" was what the Romans called "GLADIUS HISPANIENSIS", since was the copy of a Spanish sword coming from the time of the Punic wars. Nevertheless, recent studies have demonstrated that type "MAINZ" was not used at so early time and that apparently it does not have a direct connection with the Spanish sword, and its similarity is not as great as it assumed. An increasing number of findings demonstrates that gladius hispaniensis measured of 60 to 68 cm. in length without including the grip, and of 4 to 5.5 cm. wide. Some leaves are narrowed slightly in the center whereas others have the parallel sides. The ends vary of 10 to 25 cm. in length and have the cleared backs. Unfortunately no grip has survived, which would indicate that probably they were done of wood. In volume 8 of the "Journal of Roman Military Equipment Studies" can be found all the information on the subject.
Here's a link that discusses forging and whether or not steel was even used - http://www.unc.edu/courses/rometech/...IN_THE_REP.htm
This link includes the following bibliography:
Bishop, M.C. and J.C.N. Coulston. Roman Military Equipment. 1st ed. London: B.T. Batsford Ltd, 1993.

Evangelista, Nick. The Encyclopedia of the Sword. 1st ed. London: Greenwood Press, 1995.

Healy, John F. Mining and Metallurgy in the Greek and Roman World. London: Thames and Hudson, 1978.

Manning, W.H. "Blacksmithing. " Roman Crafts. Eds. D. Strong and David Brown. New York: Duckworth, 1976.

Oakeshott, Ewart R. The Archaeology of Weapons. New York: Frederick A. Praeger, Publisher, 1963.

Williams, A.R. "Roman Arms and Armour. A Technical Note. " Journal of Archaeological Science 4 (1977): 77-87.

And finally:
Quote:
This month's reading is Volume 8, 1997, of the Journal of Roman Military Equipment Studies. If you are interested in the Republican era, GET THIS BOOK. That's what it's all about! It has articles on helmets, pila, and swords, the latter being the most interesting and informative.
It turns out that the standard theory of gladius development, from Spanish waisted sword to Roman "gladius Hispaniensis" to Mainz type to Fulham type to Pompeii type is probably not correct! The problem is that a number of Roman swords from the 2nd and 1st centuries BC have now turned up, and they are all long and skinny. The blades run about 24" to almost 27" in length (60 to 67.5 cm), not counting the tang, and 1-3/4" to 2-1/4" in width (4.5 to 5.5 cm). The points are longer than on a Pompeii sword, but not always as long as on a Mainz blade. Some of the blades are very subtly waisted (narrowing below the hilt and widening out before the point), but some seem to have parallel edges. A few have been preserved inside their scabbard frames, which can obscure the exact blade shape. The waisted Spanish sword as shown in Connolly, with the double-lobed pommel ("atrophied antenna hilt"), was generally much shorter and wider, the waisting was much more pronounced, and the blade was often grooved. There is no way that the Republican gladius could have been copied from that! (And the Mainz pattern does not seem to have shown up until a century or more after the similar Spanish type disappeared.)
To make a long story short, it appears that the Spanish adopted the northern Celtic La Tene type I sword and modified it into their own local style, which the Romans in turn copied and called "gladius Hispaniensis". Even the scabbard evolution points to this, the actual Celtic examples having sheet metal scabbards with a flat loop on the back for the sword belt. Some Spanish examples have been modified by the addition of bands or strips to hold two rings on one side, the next step being wood and leather scabbards with just two horizontal metal bands and and two rings. The Roman examples also have two bands and two rings, though they usually have a metal guttering all the way around the edge, and sometimes more horizontal bands at the throat and chape. At some point the Romans went to four rings.
The article does not explain how we get from there to the Mainz, Fulham, and Pompeii types. Well, some gladii identified as Mainz blades are pretty long and not very wide, so it's not a great leap to see some of them simply getting wider in the Augustan period or later. The Fulham type isn't really much different from the gladius Hispaniensis, just shorter. The Pompeii pattern may be a completely new design, though it may simply be a divergent development, getting shorter in the blade and point.
Unfortunately there is nothing about the hilts! The shoulders of the blades are all sloped or rounded, not flat and straight like later pieces, and the tangs are all empty. Only the Delos sword, previously published in Bishop and Coulston, has a number of iron nails stuck to the tip of the tang by their points, so apparently that pommel was studded in some way. Guess we'll have to dig though the artwork for suggestions, until something else turns up.
Anyway, buy this book! It is also entitled L'Equipement Militaire et l'Armament de la Republique, and the editor is M. Feugere. It is available from David Brown Book Company, 800-791-9354, www.oxbowbooks.com/ . Order Volume 9 as well, it's out, too!


__________________
Chuck Burrows
Hand Crafted Leather & Frontier Knives
dba Wild Rose Trading Co
Durango, CO
chuck@wrtcleather.com
www.wrtcleather.com


Wild Rose Trading Co - Handcrafted Knife Sheaths



The beautiful sheaths created for storing the knife elevate the knife one step higher. It celebrates the knife it houses.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-03-2004, 06:34 PM
Roger Gregory's Avatar
Roger Gregory Roger Gregory is offline
Guru
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: England
Posts: 1,053
Good stuff from Chuck, of course

Sounds like an interesting project Scott, you planning to forge an example of every Indo-European blade from Hittite to Moran?

Other searches could be on Gladius Hispanica, that was always the name I saw.

Michael Simkins is a name to look out for, he has written extensively on Roman military equipment and has reconstructed swords and armour for museums in this country. There is a Chichester sword as well as the Pompeii and Maintz examples, I don't know how good it is.

I'll see if I can find more....

Roger


__________________
http://www.vikingdesign.co.uk
Retro-industrial and neo-tribal metalsmithing
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-03-2004, 06:42 PM
Chuck Burrows's Avatar
Chuck Burrows Chuck Burrows is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Durango, Co
Posts: 3,671
As somebody who has only passingly touched on the Romans (mainly on study of their "foes" the Celts) it was interesting to see the the evolution of the "gladius".


__________________
Chuck Burrows
Hand Crafted Leather & Frontier Knives
dba Wild Rose Trading Co
Durango, CO
chuck@wrtcleather.com
www.wrtcleather.com


Wild Rose Trading Co - Handcrafted Knife Sheaths



The beautiful sheaths created for storing the knife elevate the knife one step higher. It celebrates the knife it houses.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-04-2004, 12:57 PM
sjaqua's Avatar
sjaqua sjaqua is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Townsend, TN
Posts: 606
Send a message via ICQ to sjaqua
Thanks to everyone for the links and search ideas. I'll be checking out those avenues very soon.

Quote:
Originally posted by Roger Gregory

Sounds like an interesting project Scott, you planning to forge an example of every Indo-European blade from Hittite to Moran?

Roger
Why Roger whatever gives you that idea?

It's not like I have been a student of arms and armour for over two decades or anything

But all kidding aside, I am trying to fill a nitch in my knife making, that appears to be vacant. Or at least appears to be so out here on the left coast. That is making some very specific historical and historicly inspired blades. Even in the renn fair and historic re-enactor venues, I see mostly very modern appearing blades.

I hope by doing what I'm am doing to some day build a small but dedicated client base.


__________________
Scott B. Jaqua
http://www.hagersonforge.com
http://hagerson.livejournal.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The most important right of all, is that of Free Speech. With out that, all your other rights will soon be taken away. So, I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend until death, your right to say it!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
blade, forge, forging, knife, knife making


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:04 PM.




KNIFENETWORK.COM
Copyright © 2000
? CKK Industries, Inc. ? All Rights Reserved
Powered by ...

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
The Knife Network : All Rights Reserved