3 questions

[rockyone]

I have 3 questions.
1..Can you use say 3or4oz suede to make sheaths for small skinners?
2..do you need a welting strip when using brass rivets?
3..I`ve seen some sheaths that around the edges it is darker then the rest of the sheath,How is this done,they look like an airbrush was used because the blend was so gradual.I will probably have about 14,889 questions
before i build my first knife and sheath so please bear with with this newbie.All your help is greatly appreciated
Rocky

[Carey Quinn]

rockyone,

First, welcome to the forum.

1. Yes you can. It's probably not the best choice. A 7/8 oz veg tan would give more strength and stiffness to hold the knife securely.

2. The welt not only protects stitching, it helps to hold the knife securely in the sheath. If the knife moves in the sheath, it will never stay sharp. I don't (won't) use rivets.

3. I will defer to someone with more experience in coloring leather.

Hope this helps and keep in mind that it is just my opinion and your mileage may vary.

Carey

[sheathmaker]

I would not recommend 3/4oz suede for any knife sheath except a slip sheath for pocket carry for a slip joint or similar pocket knife. I think 7/8oz. is the minimum weight and probably if unlined 8/10 would be the minimum for fixed blade knives. Folder pouches would be 5/6 or 7/8. My personal choice is veg tanned leather but I have used NuBuck, and Oil Tanned on rare occasions. Just a note, suede is the result of a "split" and has no top grain and therefore it has only a fraction of the strength of top grain leather. It's okay for linings, but that's about it for knife sheaths.

I would absolutely never ever have a rivet any where in one of my sheaths. If you are planning to secure the entire outside seam area with rivets instead of stitching then be my guest. I think you will have a strong enough sheath but it will be utility grade because of the rivets. The cosmetic appearance will be degraded substantially, but it should function okay. A welt is STILL NECESSARY for reasons mentioned in the post above. Also if the edge is secured by only rivets make sure the welt is secured by good contact cement prior to installing the rivets ( this is necessary when stitching as well.)

Edge finish is another whole lesson and I would encorage you to use the search function and pull up threads with posts by MikeTea. His edge finish "tutorial" is pretty thorough and good. After I finish my edges I apply Feibing's Professional Oil Dye in either brown or black prior to using the final coats of Feibing's TanKote, and Tandy NeatLac.

Also be sure to read all the "stickys" at the top of this forum. there's a lot of valuable information there.

Paul

[rockyone]

Thanks guys! i will take your sugestions to heart.I have seen some nice mountain type sheaths with the metal spots that look good,that was what i was reffering to.........Rocky

[sheathmaker]

Originally Posted by rockyone

Thanks guys! i will take your sugestions to heart.I have seen some nice mountain type sheaths with the metal spots that look good,that was what i was reffering to.........Rocky

You will frequently see factory production type sheaths, sometimes made with light weight inferior leather, marketed with factory produced knives that have rivets at what is perceived to be stress points and maybe even some with five to seven rivets around the edge. These are generally unlined generic type sheaths and quite often they can speak Chinese. They are all made over the same pattern and indiviual fit to the knife is non existant.

You will almost never see anything like this in the same room with a fine custom knife or any custom knife for that matter. This is where you figure out what you want your work to be and head in that direction.

Paul

[Chuck Burrows]

Paul - I believe that the "spots" Rocky is talking about are the tacks used on mountain man/Indian style sheaths - Rocky correct me if I'm wrong....



If this is what you're asking about Rocky I can offer more advice.........

[Carey Quinn]

Beautiful work Chuck, as usual.

I, for one, would love to see and/or hear how the tack work is done.

Thanks,
Carey

[rockyone]

Yes it was the "tacked" mountain man style sheaths that i was reffering to,i should have been more plain...Rocky

[Texas Slim]

I'd like to know how those tacks are used as well. How do you stitch the welt or do the tacks take care of that???

Don't be a tease, how 'bout some details?

[Chuck Burrows]

Howdy folks - after the fiasco we just had with out website being down for a weel we've got some catching up with business to do first, but I will get you some how-to info ASAP...

[Chuck Burrows]

Folks - here's some how-to tack info that I've posted before/elsewhere, hopefull this explains it all - any questions fire away.......

I always sue a welt - many originals did not. When glued in place the originals used hide glue, I use it for my museum repro level work (bigger buck stuff...) but use contact cement for the regular line.
To do tacks properly it is best/easiest to have a piece of brass flatstock say 2-3" wide by 3/4-1" thick by at least 8" long (the wider and longer the better) to use as an anvil, a double thick piece of the rubber poundo board or similar, a light weight ball pein hammer, and a pair of end cutters ground so that the face is flat.
Lay out your pattern - I just sketch the lines in with either a red mini ball pen or a soft lead pencil. For spacing I put in a few of the major points and then eye ball to fill in the pattern.
Once the pattern is layed out use a leather awl to start the hole - BTW the leather needs to be a GOOD grade of veg tan and although I have used thinner I recommend it be least harness weight, 8/10 or 10/12 oz with a nice tight grain. Drive in three of four tacks at a time and then turn the piece over with the heads on your brass "anvil" - the anvil should be mounted on a heavy piece of wood or layed over a nice firm piece of poundo board. This cuts down on noise and also keeps it in place.
Take your end cutters and clip the shank off almost flush with the surface of the leather - it should just stand proud of the leather. Then using the flat face of the hammer tap LIGHTLY on the shank until you flatten out the center ridge left by the cutters. Then using the ball end tap a few times to flare the end of the shank and drive it slightly below the surface. Run your hand over the piece and make sure the shank is not poking out. Turn the piece over and make sure the tack heads feel solid - no matter how careful you are some shanks will want to bend side wise - if they do yank em out and do it over. Still no matter what over time and with much uses some tacks will pop out - most original pieces are missing a few tacks here and there so it just makes the piece more authentic!
This sounds more complicated than it is and it goes pretty fast once you get the rhythm - but in manu of the belts I build there are between 400-600 tacks depending on the size so no matter what it is time consuming.

Personally I am starting to use the solid brass tacks for this type, not only is more historically documented for the earlier work, from what info I have garnered steel shank tacks weren't used until some time around 1870 or so, and even after that the solid brass was the most used. They are expensive but IMO well worth the extra cost if you can afford it.

One other thing that you can do with steel shank tacks to make them easier to peen is anneal the shanks - hold the tack close to the head with a pair of needle nose and heat the shank tip to red hot with a propane torch - IMMEDIATELY bury the heated tack in a coffer can 3/4's full of coarse ground salt or sand. The salt/sand will help them cool slowly. You can then sieve the can of tacks and salt through a coarse screen. The heads will discolor but can be easily polished back with 4/0 steel wool after being set or you can leave them with that "aged' look.

Also lost tacks are common on tacked leather goods, see the original in the first pic on the left, which, to me, implies that they were not normally bent/clinched (pulling a clinched tack out usually tears the crap out of the leather). In most cases the sheaths I examined were also glued using some form of hide glue.
Again in my experience when using tacks the leather needs to be good and firm - soft leather just doesn't cut it . The solid brass square shank tacks are also much grippier than the smooth steel ones.

Here's an original using solid brass (shank and head) square shank tacks, - (they are still available from www.thetrunkshoppe.com - not cheap but the only source I've been able to find for them and for the so inclined the only historically documented tack for pre-1870 usage):


And here's one of mine - an 1870's model - using the commonly available steel shank/solid brass head tacks (which historically can be dated to the early 1870's)


and here's the front side........


as always other's mileage may vary..........

[jhn cohea]

Thanks Chuck!! Great info!!

[Crex]

Great timing Chuck, I was just getting ready to do a sheath along those lines to hold a certain socket bladed dagger with a turtle carved in the bone handle's pommel. Similar but not exactly like the one you sent me a picture of a couple of years back. Finally found some time to give that design a serious go.
As always, a pleasure to look at your work.

[rockyone]

Thanks so much Chuck! That`s exactly what i was looking for.............Rocky