Scagel on ebay!

[Buddy Thomason]

Here are the questions I posed to the seller:
1) The maker's mark appears to be on the wrong side of the blade. Have your images been flipped horizontally by a software editing program? If not, is there another explaination?
2) What's the discoloration/disfiguration on the other side of the blade, opposite the maker's mark?(shown, but not clearly,in only one of your images)
3) Are there any other marks of identification on the knife or the sheath?

And here is his answer:
"The knife has no discoloration other than the normal tarnish you would expect from being in the holder for many years. I believe the owner passed away many years ago and this piece was kept in storage. I'll try to add some more photos later. The makers mark is on the blade where you see it. This may have been a custom made piece for the original owner by Scagel. I don't know. I haven't cleaned, shinned, buffed, altered, or done anything to change the integrity of this piece. Knowing the wealth of the previous owner and the passion for hunting, I am sure it's original and the real thing. Thanks for the email. I hope I've answered the questions. Sometimes when something is too-good-to-be-true, It really is that good."

[Buddy Thomason]

2 days, 10 hours to go. 14 bids, another new bidder owns the current high bid at $3,827.77

I've asked Dr. Lucie to comment and will post any input he offers here.

[hammerdownnow]

Thanks Buddy.

[MongoForge]

I have to admit i dont know hardly anything
about Scagel knives..
Well not much compared to you guys...

But i have really enjoyed following the thread...
Kinda makes you want to hit some auctions
doesnt it

Mongo-

[Buddy Thomason]

The eBay seller sent me a follow-up e-mail with some new images that answer some of our questions. This knife is starting to have more appeal. Here's the seller's message followed by the images.
"Hi Buddy ,
Thanks for the information to get to the link. I sort of enjoyed reading the comments. Sorry about the lousy quality of the photos , but to answer any questions , I'll send you a few more photos I just took. Maybe these will help. Again , many thanks , and to answer the one comment , I had NO idea this knife was so rare , only that it was supposed to be good. Good Hunting,
PETE"




Mongo - I do enjoy auctions. I guess a lot of people do. It's easy to spend too much until one learns to set limits in advance and stick to them. After getting used to controling that urge to bid beyond the limit, it's possible to strategically pick up some cool stuff at a great price. I've had a little experience on eBay and to date it's all been positive. My brother is an economist by training and he believes eBay auctions represent a fairly accurate market value for items sold. For example, he'll check eBay prices before putting an ad in the local paper, etc. I particularly like the auctions that happen at all the American Bladesmith Society (ABS) hammer-ins and such. They are live, usually conducted by a knife-savvy professional auctioneer and they can go on and on so that if it starts to get late, dark or cold you can get great stuff embarassingly cheap!

The bid is now $3,938. Only 1 day and 22 hrs. left. There have been 15 bids. The current top bidder uses a telling eBay pseudonym -'Skagelmann.'

Still awaiting some hoped-for input from Jim Lucie. Meanwhile, the seller seems appropriately fired up! Could be a good pay day for PETE, and he seems like a nice guy.

[Terry Primos]

Maybe Pete will decide to join us over here.

Pete, if you're reading this, thanks for the extra photos.

[hammerdownnow]

Yeah thanks Pete, sorry if we were a little rough and skeptical. I can see now that the scales are an interesting use of a crown stag. Makes a nice little pinky perch. Who knows what will happen in the final minutes.

Buddy, Still have that 1 1/2"x 1 1/2"x 2' block of Ligume Vitae (spel) that had the ends waxed and put up to dry by Bill Scagel in his shop, that i won in the auction at the Scagel Expo. last August. I still don't know how or if I'll use it. Hammer-in auctions are great!

[Buddy Thomason]

Something else I noticed about this Scagel blade listed on eBay: If you kind of link the seller's images together to see the actual flow of its lines tip to tail - you can really see the classic "S" curve that is not only intimated by Scagel's 'kris' stamp, but well known to have influenced Bo Randall, who then went on to have a profound influence on knife design which continues to this day. Here's the original Scagel knife that caught Mr. Randall's eye that fateful day in 1936 by Walloon Lake in Michigan:

And here's an example from my collection of the now-famous Randall Model #3, the design of which was inspired by the knife Randall saw (and bought from the man using it to scrape the hull of a boat):


BTW, the May, 2004 issue of BLADE magazine has good information about all of this. See pp. 88-89 and 102-109. If you don't subscribe but you're interested in Scagel - get this issue for sure. The many great pictures alone are worth the effort.

I feel compelled to also say that, for those collectors lucky enough to own top examples of Scagel's knives in excellent or mint condition, it is naturally easy to dismiss or otherwise down-play the value and significance of a knife as is at auction on eBay. But the more I think about it, the more I realize that (in my humble and possiblly off-base opinion) if this knife is bought for any amount around 6K or less - it could represent a fantastic deal. "Deal," meaning that for the collector who longs to own a real Scagel but despairs at the thought of shelling out 12-25K for one, 6K is a 'deal." Or, for the person who wants to turn it for a profit, 6K or less could be a 'deal.'

Admittedly, the last Scagel that was up for sale (on eBay I think?) and discussed on this forum was one I said I would not want to own. After all one whole side of the blade was totally damaged by pitting from rust, etc. It would be difficult to own and feel good about such a knife. I see this knife in a totally different light. And the sheath is nice, to boot:

[MongoForge]

I guess there is still some scagels
floating around to be discovered

[Buddy Thomason]

Attention Pilgrims! We are fortunate that Dr. Lucie has taken time to share the following, regarding this particular Scagel knife listed on eBay, as well as some additional observations.

?I'll attempt answering some of your questions:
#1-(the touch marks) are the standard Scagel markings and are OK.
#2- I see nothing on the other side of the blade.
#3-The tooling on the A&F sheath is standard fare for the majority of [notice I said "majority"] A&F, Jos. Diekan, VL&A, VL&D, and Heiser-made sheaths.
#4-The "protrusions" on the scales are simply Scagel's way [and mine also] of having something to pull against on withdrawal and they are probably elk or white tail. If they were moose, they in all probability would appear a bit "pithy", which moose is notorious for. On this latter point I'd have to see and feel it to be sure.
#5-I completely "pass" on (value/price) evaluations. I am a maker and collector of Scagel stuff, both knives and non-knife items and not a purveyor. I leave that up to those who make a living at it.
Naturally I have my ideas but I decided years ago not to put into print my ideas. Even now, every week someone makes a query about price. The main problem of course, and I am sure this is clear to you, is that condition plays the major role in such an assessment and too many wanna-be collectors, including some dealers, have delusions of grandeur and no concept of this most important point.
There are so few mint or near-mint Scagels that this category will command the ultimate high price, which can be 2 to 3 times more than the same knife in much lesser condition. From what I can see, the knife has been poorly taken care of but the sheath appears to be in remarkably good condition.
I notice that presently the eBay bid is nearing 4 grand. I will guess it will top out at somewhere near 6 grand. Knife collecting is much akin to antique gun collecting which has been my forte for over 50 yrs. A plain garden-variety common piece in pristine condition is worth far more than the rarest of rare "dogs". The rank and file collector/dealer has trouble understanding this until they get bit a few times.?

Regarding the beautiful Scagel blade Dr. Lucie has on loan to the Arkansas Historical Museum (pictured above), he had this to say:

"That piece is unique in several aspects - first off, in my opinion, it may be the only large Scagel camp knife with pure silver pommel and guard with Ivory slabs. It is almost a clone of the ivory hunter in the top of the January picture in my (1996 Scagel calendar) only larger. I say this somewhat conditionally, because I have never seen another one. But as you and I both know, there can be more out there in the bushes. You surely proved that point! (see BLADE magazine, August 2003, "Find Of A Lifetime" by BR Hughes)
The other unique feature is this: it is 'probably' the last large - or maybe 'last ever' knife Bill made. The owner's father took delivery from Bill of this knife in November of '62, and Bill died the following March in '63. This is documented. I purchased the knife from (the owner's son) about a year after I published the calendar. I would have loved to have had it for the calendar.
An interesting feature about this knife is that it is evident that Bill was showing some signs of early Parkinsonism then, as the overall quality is slightly sub-par from his usual quality and I believe only I, as a physician, can really discern this. It is nevertheless one hell of a knife. The sheath had long been lost."

Jim references his 1996 Scagel calendar. It contains the best Scagel knife photographs available and I enthusiastically encourage you to either stop by his table in Atlanta at the BLADE Show this June and pick one up or request one be sent to you by mail. Write to:
Scagel Calendars
C/o Dr. James Lucie
4191 E. Fruitport Road
Fruitport, Michigan 49415
*include payment of $19.95 plus $2.00 for postage and packaging. If you ask, I bet he'd autograph it for you!

[Buddy Thomason]

SOLD for $6,877 after 24 bids, 5 of which were last minute desperation bids that drove the price way up from $5,000 to $6,877!
Still a lot of power in that old Scagel name...........................................

[MongoForge]

Wow...

[hammerdownnow]

Yeah....Wow! Thanks for making this a great thread Buddy! As always, interesting and informative.

[Danbo]

Wow, is not the word I would choose. Unbelieveable is more fitting.

[whv]

another excellent thread! thanx for so much information, buddy, and another great pic!