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  #16  
Old 02-14-2004, 05:13 PM
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Gary Mulkey Gary Mulkey is offline
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Ed,

I have never tried any hot blues but you have got me wondering now about the difference in edge holding. Question: When you blued the blade, was the temperature of the blueing process high enough to temper hardness out of the blade thusly causing the lower edge holding or is there something else that I'm not seeing.
Please give me your thoughts.

Gary
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  #17  
Old 02-14-2004, 05:33 PM
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I like Gary's question.........are you immersing the blades in hot liqued?


Ed, Re. the 10% reduction in performance question. That was too easy, I could have figured that one out. In my minds eye I had a picture of you in a lab coat in a sterile environment logging data on a chart.8o

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  #18  
Old 02-14-2004, 10:53 PM
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Gary, with Nitre blue your using a liquid at 570F-650F, the trick is time. Everything with blades has to do with Time AND temp. The blades that were reduced 10% in cutting ability were in the liquid for 2 mins 30 seconds. Anything more than 5 mins in my tests turned out with unacceptable cutting ability.....at least for me.

Mace....... Only if lab coats are made of Carhart! , and the notation device is a steel bench with soapstone for the writing device.


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Last edited by Ed Caffrey; 02-15-2004 at 10:28 AM.
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  #19  
Old 02-15-2004, 10:18 AM
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Thanks Ed. It sounds like the only steels that would be uneffected by the heat would have too much chromium to make the process effective.

Gary
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  #20  
Old 02-15-2004, 10:47 AM
T L Smith T L Smith is offline
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Ed,

I didn't see anyone suggest Rust Bluing. If you experiment with the solutions you can get anything from a rich blue black to a deep red brown. The metal only gets to about 200* in the process. It takes longer but IMO it is the most beautiful of the bluing processes (excepting maybe the early colt charcoal blue on their revolvers).

Tom
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  #21  
Old 02-17-2004, 12:53 AM
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Sorry I don't have a better pic of this gun-blued damascus coil-spring auto by John Perry, JS of Mayflower, AR. I have grown to really appreciate this knife.
I carry this "high-end" auto every day and use it all the time. It's very sharp and has remained sharp since I took delivery of it in October, '03. I do believe I can detect a subtle difference in cutting performance as compared to some other non-blued damascus blades (some of which I use and some I don't).
However, I have experienced a lot of variability in 'sharpness' with damascus blades of different steel types and cannot personally sort out whether any slight decrement in cutting ability results from bluing, damascus steel combos, or etching of the damascus (after confirming edge geometry is appropriate and there is no burr present, of course).
I had difficulty understanding and appreciating the knife using only a professional photo John sent me - so I asked him to send me the knife so I could examine it in person. (The bluing makes it difficult to photograph.) After examining the knife in hand I found lots of reasons to like it.
First the design and workmanship were perfect. Bluing that's done to cover up flaws in craftsmanship is a bad idea. Many collectors I know are suspicious about that possibility.
Secondly, bluing makes the knife dark, very dark. People don't seem to notice this dark knife - a plus for me. I wanted a high-end knife like this one for strategic carry or else I'd have to return to some of my older black factory tacticals - sorry, no soul there.
The gun-bluing treatment did enhance the slightly 'soapy' feel damascus sometimes has, so a sure grip is necessary for control, especially during winter's cold temperatures with dry hands and fingers.
I have to say that I have no appreciatiation for more colorful bluing treatments that produce a vibrant and provocative look. In fact I've found that carrying and handling a knife with colorfully blued bolsters, for example, can ruin the colors because of the oils in the skin. Not good!
As to blued straight blades, maybe for special-ops type uses, but otherwise I can't seem to muster any interest there.
So, yes, in general, if bluing reduces cutting ability, I'd be very concerned - unless there are other over-riding issues as described above. Corrosion resistance is not enough of a reason for me to consider a blued blade. If other parts of the folder excluding blade, bolsters and/or handle are blued, that's fine with me if it enhances the design aesthetics. Clear as mud, right?


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  #22  
Old 02-17-2004, 11:43 AM
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Hmmm... "Blue," knives. I thought you guys meant knives with naughty pics on them!

I had one customer who really really really wanted me to blue his knife. Not having a bluing set-up wasn't even enough for him. He seemed to think it would provide some rust prevention, which I did not think was the case. Anyway, I said NO. I just don't like the way it looks... but I'm glad to know now that the bluing temps are that high. Of course it's a bad idea! Bright blue = spring temper! Duh! Maybe on a nice, long flamberge... but not on a knife.


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  #23  
Old 02-17-2004, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
He seemed to think it would provide some rust prevention, which I did not think was the case.
Actually it has been and still is used on firearms for just that reason.

As mentioned by TL Smith no one has mentioned cold rust bluing (actually it's not completely cold - you have to boil the part(s) but that's only 214F). This is the method used on high end double guns since the solder would lose it's hold at the higher temps. Example:

Brownell's sells Pinkington Classic American Rust Blue - this is only the start - you need to make a humidity box as well. But when done right it's not only beautiful but tougher than any other method of bluing.
Here are a couple of links on how-to for those interested - the site also sells their own formula:
ABOUT SLOW RUST BLUE
INSTRUCTIONS FOR DO-IT-YOURSELF SLOW RUST BLUE

Note: he uses a hotplate with a a pan of water for his humidity source, but a small humidifier works even better and is much safer.

The following books also give you plenty of info:
"Gunsmithing" by Roy Dunlap
"NRA Gunsmithing Guide" by the National Rifle Association
"Firearms Blueing and Browning" by R.H. Angier
"Gunsmith Tips and Projects" by Wolf Publishing


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  #24  
Old 02-17-2004, 07:55 PM
JossDelage JossDelage is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wild Rose
As mentioned by TL Smith no one has mentioned cold rust bluing (actually it's not completely cold - you have to boil the part(s) but that's only 214F). This is the method used on high end double guns since the solder would lose it's hold at the higher temps.
I wonder how it would look on damascus. Would the rust build up on the Ni bearing steel too? Probably, right? I haven't heard that L6 doesn't rust...


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  #25  
Old 02-17-2004, 10:25 PM
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Joss, you should be able to get contrast between the different steels. I've tried hard to get the rib to match the barrels on several occasions and not been sucessful.

Chuck you are correct about the rust blue. The only problem with it is it is labor intensive usually requiring several weeks to complete. But it sure is purdy

Roy Dunlaps book sure has a bunch of good info. It was my gunsmithing bible for years...seems I spend more time in it now that I make knives.


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  #26  
Old 02-17-2004, 11:06 PM
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Thanks for the correction, Chuck.

I've seen some blades upon which bluing looks great- some with damascus where it provided a pleasant contrast. It's not my aesthetic... though now I wonder how it would look and how it would hold up if you simply didn't go as high on the temp and got, say, a nice straw color... would that work? You wouldn't be changing the temper to a negative degree...


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  #27  
Old 02-18-2004, 01:29 AM
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Chuck Burrows Chuck Burrows is offline
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Quote:
Chuck you are correct about the rust blue. The only problem with it is it is labor intensive usually requiring several weeks to complete. But it sure is purdy
Purdy - just noticed the pun - Purdey & Sons is one of the finest English Gun makers and still uses the finish. As to the time a humidity box helps immensely - I can get a very good finish in just a few days and that's here where the normal humidity runs around 30%.

Jon -
Usually the lighter colors created by using salts aren't all that tough.
A method you might try is to use a mixture of hydrogen peroxide 1 pint, plus a 1/4 cup of cider vinegar, plus two tablespoons of salt. Kill the action with hot water and baking soda. Then rub a coat or two of warm boiled linseed oil and Voila!
It gives you a beautiful coppery red/brown color that still has a translucent quality, keeping the metallic qualities as opposed to a solid rusty coloration. It is also quite tough - not easily worn off. I've just started experimenting with this method, but it looks fantastic. I haven't tried boiling it yet - that is the "secret" of the cold rust method for turning the color from bark brown to blue/black.


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  #28  
Old 02-18-2004, 06:23 AM
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Wow Chuck, A couple of days! I used a humidity box. But it was the old standby, a cabnet with a light bulb and a pan of water. I guess I will have to try it again with a proper humidifier. I need to try your peroxide vinager mix too, sounds interesting. Thanks


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  #29  
Old 02-18-2004, 11:19 AM
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Chuck Burrows Chuck Burrows is offline
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Steve it was more like 6-7 days but still less than the several weeks that some of the old timers took.


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  #30  
Old 02-18-2004, 12:30 PM
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Good thread,Ed
I'v become a sponge
Blue is my favorite color.
I'v blued many ways, yet we still learn as we go.
Thanks everybody!
I am blessed again.
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