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  #76  
Old 01-30-2016, 05:12 PM
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samg samg is offline
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Here are better pics of Ta2Bills Bowie. Nice Bowie in a Moore sheath.

Regards, Samg







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  #77  
Old 01-30-2016, 05:19 PM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
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I wish Grady McCotter was still alive to recondition the Moore sheath for me. The knife is going back to RMK for a freshening up.
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  #78  
Old 03-11-2016, 12:26 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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This knife was posted by a commercial dealer on another forum with the statement that it was one of the first model 13s made, 1953-54 with a Moore sheath. No pictorial or descriptive evidence was presented that the sheath shown was a Moore sheath. But in my opinion the knife was likely made in 1963-1966, not early ?50s. Presenting this knife as a very early example of a model 13 could mislead a potential buyer.





The component on this knife that could be dated to the 1950s is the brass hilt which is relatively thick and has brazed lugs. This hilt is tapered slightly which I believe was late in the brazed lug period. These brazed-lug hilts were replaced in late?50s early ?60s. But the rest of the handle components are much later. The ivory handle itself has thin, 4th generation fiber spacers that were not introduced until 1963-65 or so. And this type coolie cap was not made until about late 1963-65, and if the tang nut is round, that was not introduced until even later.

Unless the knife was re-handled in the mid ?60s, I cannot imagine how younger components from the 1960s could be put on an older knife. But there are plenty of ways a old hilt lying at the bottom of the parts bin could be used years later on a younger knife.

The original ivory handles on Bowies and toothpicks had 1/8-in leather spacers and the coolie caps were hand cut with deep tear drop shaped flutes. Here is an example.

1st generation Bowie/toothpick leather spacer, 1953-early 54.







More 1st generation:



Here is a picture that compares the '53-'54 1st generation spacer and coolie cap to a 4th generation spacer and 3rd generation coolie cap.



In about 1955, the 1/8? leather spacers were replaced by 1/16? spacers. These were used on the King Feisal set and continued to be used into the 1960s. Here is an example of 2nd generation spacer from 1958. Note also the coolie cap hardware.

2nd generation leather spacer.


A even thinner leather (presumably) spacer was used for a while beginning in early '60s, certainly by 1963.. This spacer was still noticeably thicker than the fiber spacers adopted afterward. Also early '60s the coolie cap construction was changed to 2nd generation. See early in this line and review the coolie cap line. Example.

3rd leather gasket, 1963 coolie cap



Finally in about 64-66 or so, the coolie cap shown on the original knife was introduced along with the thin fiber spacers.

The person who presented the original knife as being circa 1953-54 may not know much about historic Randalls and perhaps he just took someone's opinion at face value. But If the subject knife had been presented as ?1953? on E-bay I would feel obligated to point out the flaws for the protection of the community.

As usual, I've posted some of the facts behind my statement and am open to rebuttals, counter arguments and facts. I am not open to avowals of belief or claims of authority however. If I am shown to be wrong, I'll publically admit it too. I'm not proud. Regards to all.

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-31-2017 at 03:22 PM.
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  #79  
Old 03-14-2016, 04:21 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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In my comments on the above toothpick, I noted that the handle was likely mid-'60s and I posted photo analysis. I also said that the only way it could have been early '50s as claimed, was if it had been later re-handled ... but in that case there would be no way to show that it was early '50s. I also suggested that the commercial dealer may not be knowledgeable about early Bowie/toothpick Randalls and may have just accepted someone's avowal.

Now, the dealer has apparently sold the knife and posted a story that the knife was re-handled twice ... By inference we could conclude my age identification of the handle was correct (which it is). This "re-handle story" was not included in the original post where the knife was presented as one of the first early 1950s 12-13 toothpicks, without qualification. It is unknown if the "early '50s story" was used to sell the knife. Also it is unknown if the questions about the age of the (re?) handle that were raised here were made known to the buyer.

Had I not posted the analysis of that knife, it is probably safe to assume this "story" would not likely have surfaced. Also, the original highly questionable claim of early '50s for that knife would have stood as written.

I purposefully did not make a judgment on the commercial aspects, or use names, cast aspersions, etc. I just dealt with the facts as we would when anyone posts a knife of questionable age.

The claims in the original post were either a mistaken belief about the age of the knife, probably based on lack of knowledge, or it they were something else. That depends on unknowns; what was told to the buyer of the knife, and what he thought he was getting. Given the new story about this knife that has been added, others can draw their own conclusions.

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-31-2017 at 03:23 PM.
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  #80  
Old 03-14-2016, 06:21 PM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
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I know personally from examining it what the knife was and passed on it because of all the inconsistencies with it.

And it seems like much of the technical information on this forum winds up on others, Like a fart in church.

All said and done, I hope the new owner is happy with it. I still love ALL old Randalls, even altered ones!

Last edited by Ta2bill; 03-15-2016 at 06:51 AM.
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  #81  
Old 03-14-2016, 08:34 PM
dirty water dirty water is offline
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Jack, did u not also say yourself that the lugged hilt appeared to be in the 50's era...?

RMK did not store up brazen lugs like we do the one piece lug now, they were put on as needed only...

I know the full story was never published, but I was told the exact same story from the dealer, a very reputable dealer I might add...
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  #82  
Old 03-14-2016, 09:46 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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Scott, yes, of course I made that observation. Given the special methods used, I would speculate that making several brazed hilts in a batch made sense in the 1950s-60s. And if the hilt was the deciding factor for age determination ... where is the original coolie cap?

But whether the shop did or didn't have some extra brazed lug hilts in a bin back then is not my point. When discussing vintage knives, we shouldn't hang our hat on "it could be." Heck, every knife Mr. Randall made in the 1950s "could be" in that case. But the vintage of this knife wasn't even presented as a "could be"... it was presented as hard fact.

To make a claim about a vintage knife one should ideally present the case .. and if there is doubt, acknowledge it openly. In a discussion, heck, anyone can claim anything they want.. within limits of course. But the rule about being open becomes an absolute when selling a vintage knife. Sorry ... that knife has a lot of features that point to 1960s, and not nearly enough to make the claim made about it regardless of the reputation of the dealer.

Look... I'm just an interested collector who thinks that the ethics of selling collectable Randalls require full disclosure. If full disclosure was made in this case and the buyer wanted the knife for the price regardless of the question of age.. fine ... the issue then is just another inflated claim on the internet.

But if that knife was presented to a customer as "early 1950s" with no basis other than a questionable hilt, ignoring all other datable features, it is another story. And if the buyer trusted the well known seller's reputation and paid an age premium based on his say-so, well... some words come to mind.

I have nothing against anyone. But, if I were a dealer who sold that knife and it turned out there was serious question about the claims, I would take the knife back or offer a rebate. Everyone is mistaken at times... especially including me. What is wrong with admitting it and making it right? Is reputation worth a couple hundred bucks?

What can be learned here? Different people will take away different things. I've had my say, time for me to begin admiring vintage Bowies again.

Regards,

Last edited by Jacknola; 03-14-2016 at 10:24 PM.
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  #83  
Old 03-15-2016, 05:38 AM
dirty water dirty water is offline
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Knowing your relationship with Cap the reputation of the dealer I was referring to was the the one was selling it at the Lakeland show...sure, I will concede that if it was KNOWN that this knife was definitely 60's as not 50's that I'm sure it would be made right...however, sheath and lugged hilt say 50's and the story at the show was the same that was told to the buyer and laid out as such..."this is the story we were told", not that Cap should HAVE to explain and defend any sale...

Look Jack, your search and disclosure on these threads are second to none, frankly I don't know how possible it is to put these dates so concise, but congrats on your reputation and the following on these threads.
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  #84  
Old 03-15-2016, 09:04 AM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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Thank you Scott. Not all "stories" are wrong but no stories should be used to validate a knife without SOME back up. This story has none, not even a letter from the family. And the "story" wasn't even mentioned until the authenticity of the vintage of the knife was questioned. Suddenly a "story" appears?

I don't give a rats about who told what story about that knife or what "dealer" said what to whom. The knife has a lot of 1960s by the components that are on it... It is a LONG way from being one of the first 13-12s ever made... You can go back and look at the pictures I posted of knifes that are truly early. This one is not.... time to man up and admit it.

Just to remind you of the difference here are several Bowie and model 13 knives. One is truly one of the earliest made and others are very early The subject knife is not early. Even the differences in the hilts are obvious.







"Credibility" is a limited asset and once lost is hard to get back. Well, lots of credibility has been lost here ... I would think twice about dealing with him on any level now. That guy Beauchamp on E-bay writes the kind of junk that he wrote about this knife.

Perhaps he should not have gone on line and made such an unsupported dramatic avowal about something he doesn't know much about (vintage Randall knives). Low key is a better pitch.

I am not the conscience of the collecting community. But I would hope the COLLECTING community does not allow one person's long time involvement to excuse him from criticism when he is falsely hyping a knife for commercial gain. If a community does excuse such behavior (and that is what seems to be happening), they can no longer be trusted. Everything in that community must then must be seen through the lens of someone trying to make money off of the gullible, not collecting.

It is unimportant to me what others post about my comments elsewhere.

Last edited by Jacknola; 07-31-2017 at 03:24 PM.
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  #85  
Old 03-15-2016, 01:51 PM
dirty water dirty water is offline
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This will my last post on this (I hope),

Jack, quit altering your post, everytime I attempt a reply it looks like I'm answering some other one!

I don't make the claim to be an expert on the old knives, hell, even the new ones are confusing to me!! But here is my take on the knife...I believe the story to be true ; being as what would the family that sold the knife in the first place have to gain by making this story up? All they were trying to do was sell the collection to make a few bucks, they obviously had no idea of the values...

The grind lines are very poor as is the braising of the lug, indicative of the early bowies, now I may not have held as many as you have, (?) , but this is painfully obvious! The collar looks as if it doesn't even match the buttcap because it was never removed in the first place and has been wiped out by rehandling and reshaping...

Jimmy Garrett was the "braiser" for over 30+ years and was blind as a bat till the end! I remember him reparing a braise and another employee making a statement "that if we made knives that looked like that today, we'd be fired!!"

Very low quality in the finish dept was very apparent on the old knives, especially the bowies! So, I guess you can clump me in with "experts" that you have disagreed with in the past because I believe the "story" and think maybe you missed this ONE...
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  #86  
Old 03-15-2016, 02:12 PM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
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Various Coolie Caps

I have found this thread extremely interesting from the onset. I have submitted a photograph of the coolie cap on my early to mid 60's Ivory handled Smithsonian that came from the Grady McCotter collection. So I figured that I should share a few more from the safe!

This is a very interesting coolie cap on a Big Bear Bowie with AGM handle, circa mid 80's. Kind of reminds me of a pinwheel.
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  #87  
Old 03-15-2016, 05:56 PM
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Jacknola Jacknola is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty water View Post
This will my last post on this (I hope),

Jack, quit altering your post, everytime I attempt a reply it looks like I'm answering some other one!

I don't make the claim to be an expert on the old knives, hell, even the new ones are confusing to me!! But here is my take on the knife...I believe the story to be true ; being as what would the family that sold the knife in the first place have to gain by making this story up? All they were trying to do was sell the collection to make a few bucks, they obviously had no idea of the values...

The grind lines are very poor as is the braising of the lug, indicative of the early bowies, now I may not have held as many as you have, (?) , but this is painfully obvious! The collar looks as if it doesn't even match the buttcap because it was never removed in the first place and has been wiped out by rehandling and reshaping...

Jimmy Garrett was the "braiser" for over 30+ years and was blind as a bat till the end! I remember him reparing a braise and another employee making a statement "that if we made knives that looked like that today, we'd be fired!!"

Very low quality in the finish dept was very apparent on the old knives, especially the bowies! So, I guess you can clump me in with "experts" that you have disagreed with in the past because I believe the "story" and think maybe you missed this ONE...
I do edit my posts to try to take the emotion out of them. Sorry. Scott, that is a very well reasoned, rational post. I disagree, but you have presented your case very well. The info about the grinds is good stuff. Let's drop it now...it is a moot point in any case. Thanks for the insights into the shop, regards.
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  #88  
Old 05-09-2016, 06:25 PM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
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Scott, Thank you for taking the time out today to spend some time talking with me.

While we were on the topic of fluted collars and butt caps on my King Faisal set, did you say that it was Jim Garrett who was the sole craftsman of those pieces for many, many years?
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  #89  
Old 05-20-2016, 09:30 PM
dirty water dirty water is offline
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Yes I did...Jim was a great craftsman and the last member of the original shop...
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  #90  
Old 05-21-2016, 07:18 AM
Ta2bill Ta2bill is offline
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That is a tid-bit of information that I can't thank you enough for sharing with me! I love it when these little details come to light to help keep the Randall history alive. I'm sure that you have 1000 other details in your memory that seem insignificant in the grand scheme of things, and are just taken for granted, that a modest collector like myself find amazing.

Thank you once again for ALL that you do Scott,

Respectfully, Tattoo Bill
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