MEMBER ITEMS FOR SALE
Custom Knives | Other Knives | General Items
-------------------------------------------
New Posts | New PhotosAll Photos



Go Back   The Knife Network Forums : Knife Making Discussions > Custom Knife Discussion Boards > Knife Making Discussions > The Newbies Arena

The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-02-2015, 08:15 PM
biddysere biddysere is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4
lumberyard saw blade knife

I made a Bolo knife from one of those big, 4 ft. lumberyard sawmill blades. It has worked great for smaller skinners but on the Bolo- I cut a green tree limb and the cutting edge is folded or has little dings in it.
I know the metal is hard because I can not drill the handle pin holes with a regular bit, having to use a sharpened masonry bit.
I am not sure of my bevel but it is fairly flat.
Do these blades need tempering or is it my angle is not steep enough for chopping?
Thanks!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-02-2015, 08:17 PM
jmccustomknives jmccustomknives is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Alabama
Posts: 554
What heat treat procedure did you use? You can't just make a knife from one of those blades without properly heat treating them, as is they are way to soft.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-02-2015, 08:20 PM
biddysere biddysere is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4
Well, maybe that's it!
I figured since the metal was so dam hard, it was already tempered
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-02-2015, 08:26 PM
biddysere biddysere is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4
Thanks for the insight!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-02-2015, 09:22 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
Hall of Famer
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 2,612
There are two parts to the heat treating process here. One is hardening which involves bringing the steel up to a red heat until it has lost it's magnetism and then just a little hotter and then rapidly cooling it, quenching, bring it up to maximum hardness. Then you heat the steel again to around 375-400?. depending on that alloy and use, to reduce the hardness to a usable level. That steel has already been hardened and tempered. It's just that the temper has been drawn too much for a knife blade which really shows up when you try to use it as a chopper. That's also assuming that you're using a saw mill blade that is uniform throughout and doesn't just have hard steel teeth backed by soft steel. It's one of the reasons that mystery metal is frowned upon by many around here.

Doug


__________________
If you're not making mistakes then you're not trying hard enough
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-03-2015, 05:40 AM
Crex's Avatar
Crex Crex is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Acworth, GA and/or Hanging Dog, NC
Posts: 3,583
You might also want to throw in a few normalizing steps. Although not tempered the same as a knife blade, the steel has been through some enormous stress just in normal usage.

Be aware as Doug indicated that all saw blades are not the same. Mystery steels take a lot of testing to be sure you are getting the thermal cycling correct for the steel. Best done before you go through all the effort of making a working knife from the steel.

KNOW not all sawblades are L6 or 15n20 and they were HTd to specs for saw blades not knives.


__________________
Carl Rechsteiner, Bladesmith
Georgia Custom Knifemakers Guild, Charter Member
Knifemakers Guild, voting member
Registered Master Artist - GA Council for the Arts
C Rex Custom Knives

Blade Show Table 6-H
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-04-2015, 07:48 PM
biddysere biddysere is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4
Thanks again.
The metal is hard. A file hardly scratches it. I changed the bevel and chopped some seasoned bamboo and it held up.
I never knew that about the saw blades, ya'll taught me a lot! Think I'll make spear points out of the rest of it
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-04-2015, 07:54 PM
jmccustomknives jmccustomknives is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Alabama
Posts: 554
Believe it or not, there are guys out there that sell those "saw mill" knives and never heat treat them. You did the smart thing, tested it. Always test your blades. Some of those blades aren't worth messing with, others make most excellent big knives. Some of my favorite Damascus was made using saw mill blades.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-09-2015, 12:27 AM
Colonel666's Avatar
Colonel666 Colonel666 is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 45
The hardness of saw blade steel is fine for knives and are good for light duty. The molybdenum alloy used is for high speed and resistant to the heat from friction. The problem is they rust badly when used as knives that they were not intended to be. Bluing or powder coating is essential if you plan on getting your saw mill blade steel knife wet someday.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-09-2015, 05:38 AM
jmccustomknives jmccustomknives is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Alabama
Posts: 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel666 View Post
The hardness of saw blade steel is fine for knives and are good for light duty. The molybdenum alloy used is for high speed and resistant to the heat from friction. The problem is they rust badly when used as knives that they were not intended to be. Bluing or powder coating is essential if you plan on getting your saw mill blade steel knife wet someday.
Would you care to send one of those blade to someone for testing? Saw steels are all over the place in alloy content. And yes they are a carbon steel (for the most part) but can range from a ho-hum 1060 to M series steels. Generally the ones at a saw mill are around 45 rch, nowhere near a good hardness for anything but a butter knife.

The only blades I've dealt with that had a high moly content were crap for a good knife. This steel disappointed me (I had several hundred pounds of it) and wanted to find out why it tested out like 1070. Turns out it was pretty much 1070 with Moly and manganese.
Other blades were L-6 or a similar alloy. I've even ran across a M series steel used to cut pipe. That was some weird stuff and is probably the only one that would have made a functional blade, all be it not attaining the steels full potential.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-09-2015, 06:04 AM
Crex's Avatar
Crex Crex is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Acworth, GA and/or Hanging Dog, NC
Posts: 3,583
Colonel - not trying to be contentious here, but your statements can be somewhat misleading to the novice knifemaker.

> All saw blades are not made from the same steel, some have no moly in them.....ergo mystery steel. Unless one is "gifted" a spec sheet from the mfgr. or has a lab test done, one at best can only make an educated guess as to the steel composition.
> All saw blades are not thermal cycled the same because of this and other factors known to the mfgr., therefore have differing hardness parameters .... again mystery issues. Some are even differentially hardened.
> Most high carbon forgable steels will rust badly if not maintained properly, just the way it is with these steels. If one doesn't get a blade wet at some point in it's life, one probably isn't a serious knife user. Bluing, powder coating and other treatments are short lived on working knives and pretty much a waste of time, effort and money. Proper maintenance is the key. High carbon steel blades will patina with use, creating their own naturally induced protective coating very similar to "bluing" (as it is an oxidation process). Just the scratches and scuffs won't show so bad if that's an issue.

That being said, many very fine knives are and have been made from sawmill blades, but almost all of the really good ones were re-thermal cycled to parameters best suited for knife blades not saws. Most of the knifemakers I know, take the time to do some serious testing of the steel to make sure it will perform well as a knife before finishing one out. Just good business sense.


__________________
Carl Rechsteiner, Bladesmith
Georgia Custom Knifemakers Guild, Charter Member
Knifemakers Guild, voting member
Registered Master Artist - GA Council for the Arts
C Rex Custom Knives

Blade Show Table 6-H
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-09-2015, 06:43 AM
Colonel666's Avatar
Colonel666 Colonel666 is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 45
Lightbulb Tech and Blade Steel

The saw blade knife projects are numerous but useful and fun. Nothing like the satisfaction of a do-it-yourself project. That is the point to enjoy the work. Saw blades of many types used for different applications. The egress knives made by the Air Force pilots were crafted from hack saw blades and fitted with acrylic grips. The point here to use your own design to fit your task.
Let's hear more what the others use theirs for?
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-09-2015, 06:06 PM
jmccustomknives jmccustomknives is offline
Skilled
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Alabama
Posts: 554
True story Colonel. I had a guy come to me to buy a hunting knife. He wanted me to see if I could sharpen this saw blade knife he bought off a "knifemaker". I took that knife and with very little testing it was blatantly obvious that he never heat treated it. When I asked the guy who bought it the seller mentioned that it was "fine the way it was." That knife wouldn't cut through hot butter without rolling the edge. The point is, if you want to do something and enjoy doing it that's one thing. If you are going to sell it that's another thing all together.

By the way, since that time that guy has been a repeat customer and has commissioned many blades (and a few arrow heads) of which at least 1 was a saw blade steel. You see, he uses his knives and expects them to be sharp.

If that "knifemaker" had took the time to do comparative testing he would have known his knife was lacking. If he would have cared enough to test it then maybe he would have wanted to make them better.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-09-2015, 08:45 PM
Colonel666's Avatar
Colonel666 Colonel666 is offline
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 45
Smile Bevels and Uses

Quote:
Originally Posted by biddysere View Post
I am not sure of my bevel but it is fairly flat.
Do these blades need tempering or is it my angle is not steep enough for chopping?
Thanks!
Here is a link to saw blade knife specialist:
www.dtknives.com/Information.html

The question really also "is bevel at correct angle for it's intended application?"


Here is a link to a chart that lists bevels and uses:
http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Ti...Angle-W44.aspx
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-10-2015, 06:48 AM
Crex's Avatar
Crex Crex is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Acworth, GA and/or Hanging Dog, NC
Posts: 3,583
I've had experiences similar to yours JM. Really not sure how some professed "knifemakers" stay in business at all. They sure give other custom makers a bad rep. Seems to be an uphill running fist fight sometimes.

I have no problem proving my knives will do what they are designed to do - I get weary of explaining to someone that doesn't really want to know the "why" behind how they perform.
Most often it is a wasted time one can't get back.

Not much info on DT's site concerning saw blades to support "specialist" credentials (or did I miss a link on his site?). None of the file/rasp mfgrs. will supply spec analysis on steels used. 1095 has always been suspected, but I have never seen lab analysis posted as evidence.....so it's a bit of a subjective guess, based on "backyard" testing. Not a bad thing, but still subjective.
Examples:
Nicholson brand files - seem to be all over the page these days. Only the older "Black Diamond" files have proven to be consistent in response to 1095 heat-treating standards. They farm most of their "box store" models out to guess where?
Heller brand rasp/files do not respond well to standard 1095 heat-treating specs (which curiously speaks for itself). They seem to be very much in the same category as Safe Edge these days. Great for wrap-around hawks, but marginal on actual carbon content for working knives. Didn't learn all of this from reading, but from applied science.......doing.

Such is the way of the world we live in. Dad used to say "The only absolute is there aren't any!"


__________________
Carl Rechsteiner, Bladesmith
Georgia Custom Knifemakers Guild, Charter Member
Knifemakers Guild, voting member
Registered Master Artist - GA Council for the Arts
C Rex Custom Knives

Blade Show Table 6-H
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
angle, bee, bevel, blade, blades, brass, chopper, drill, edge, file, flat, handle, heat, heat treat, hot, knife, knife blade, knives, made, make, metal, mill, saw blade, spear, steel


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Knife blade help humminboid The Newbies Arena 2 08-07-2008 07:34 PM
'Knife Illustrated' vs. 'Blade' - which is the best one? JossDelage Knife Collecting 31 12-14-2001 10:48 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:48 AM.




KNIFENETWORK.COM
Copyright © 2000
? CKK Industries, Inc. ? All Rights Reserved
Powered by ...

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
The Knife Network : All Rights Reserved