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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need. |
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#1
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Steel for a Newbie
Another newbie question regarding what steel to start with.
I am just beginning so please b ear with me. First my equipment : Coal Forge Quenching Medium - Peanut Oil (As I have that on hand) Heat Treating : Convention Gas Kitchen Oven Railroad Anvil - Until I can find one I can afford. I was told I should be able to find one in the $3 - $4 per pound range. However, it seems even the well used asking price is in the $5 - $6 range. After reading a number of post I had decided that the consensus was 1084 would be the best for a beginner; however, it is extremely hard to locate. The other two steels I have seen referenced are 1095 and 52100. Which of these would be recommended for a beginner? What are the thoughts about using 1018 (realizing it is too mild for knife making) to develop the forming and shaping techniques? |
#2
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1084, newjerseysteelbaron.com
The two you mention are not for beginners, or those without a way of good heat control. |
#3
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Are you trying to forge or just stock removal? I suppose you're trying to forge, hence the railroad anvil. I can say this without batting an eye......don't start with 52100. You don't have the equipment to heat treat 52100 correctly. Speaking of heat treat....you said you have a gas kitchen oven. That is only going to be good for tempering. You need to use your coal forge or a proper heat treat oven to harden the steel, and then use the kitchen oven for tempering.
I CANNOT STRESS ENOUGH that you really need to start with 1084. It is a GREAT steel. The heat treat is simple for 1084, and looking at your equipment list, that is the steel you're limited to. Let me clarify that a bit. You CAN certainly use 1095 or 52100, but it is a bit tricky using a forge to heat treat those steels. 1095 requires a soak at 1475 for 10 minutes or so, something that is kinda hard to do (but certainly doable....I do it) in an open gas, or coal, forge. And 52100 is even MORE difficult to do properly. I'm sure you've read many threads that talk about the diffculty of getting 52100 where it ought to be without a proper heat treat oven. It can certainly be done, don't get me wrong, but 1084 is going to be your best bet. If you cannot find 1084, go with the 1095. 1080 and 1084 are easy because they require no soak time. Bring the blade up just past nonmagnetic, and quench in your peanut or canola oil. Temper 2 hours at 400 twice. The same with 1095, but you need to hold the 1095 at above nonmagnetic (around 1475) for 10 minutes....tricky to do without a proper heat treat oven. Good luck!!! |
#4
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1080- Kelly Cupples. Order a $100 worth of steel and he ships it for free. I always save up n buy in bulk. Shipping is a killer on steel. I've bought from Aldo also. Both are great guys to deal with but you can't beat free shipping
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#5
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Awe heck. 5160 is one of the most forgiving steels I have forged. Easy to heat treat, makes a very tough knives. A modern truck leaf spring (most are 5160) is cheap practice material, just remember it is used and may have cracks although in all my years I've never run across that. Even the new stuff is pretty cheap. 52100 is tough to forge and both 1095 adn 52100 are a little more tempermental about the heat treat.
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#6
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Unless you're just into doing things the way the old timers did it I'd forget the coal forge and build a simple propane forge. You'll have enough trouble getting the heat right for 1084 without having to deal with trying to get a coal forge running right. If you use any of those other steels things will just get tighter.
1095 will not harden properly in peanut oil. It will harden but it will not harden properly, the oil is too slow. For 1095 you need a professional oil like Parks 50. 52100 is way beyond anything you should mess with at this time. The forging temperature on that steel is only about 200 degrees wide and it's a very hard steel to move under a hammer. I wouldn't assume any leaf springs are 5160 at this point. Might be, might not. Probably something fairly equivalent even if they aren't 5160 but, again, you aren't ready to deal with the ramifications of what those differences might mean. Stick with the 1080 or 1084 and, hopefully, a propane forge. You can get 1080 or 1084, and usually 5160, from Sheffields knife supply in very small quantities. They have a great calatog but almost no website so you'll have to call them. If you can order larger quantities then go to the New Jersey Steel Baron or Kelly Cupples for your steel. Why waste time on mild steel? It costs the same or even more than 1084 and if all your work produces something you like in mild steel you still don't have anything. Get some 1084 or 1080. In a pinch you could use 1065 or 1070 but the 1080 or 1084 is the best match to your needs at the moment ... |
#7
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I need to state something first, Ray and the rest of the guys on here are spot on regarding some of the difficulties of mystery steel. Starting out you're better off working with the known and 'easier' steels.
However, if you have a leaf, coil, or other large spring and want to make a knife, do it. Oil quench it, and temper at 350-500F and hope for the best. Lower temperature will give you a harder temper. If you want to test it a bit before you forge something, draw out a section to around 1/4" and anneal. Then harden and break it, in half. I like to set it in my vise and give it a good solid whack with a hammer from the side. If it snaps and it has a nice fine grain pattern then you should have something you can make a knife or similar with, you're not going to be able to get it the HT great, but you can make a knife. |
#8
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Thanks so Much
I really appreciate everyone's answers to my question.
Ray, I have somewhat of an emotional attachment to using a coal forge to begin with. My interest in making knives resulted from owning some items my grandfather forged on the family farm that he bought back in 1914. I have access to his forge and anvil and so I feel a real connection to him when I am using his old forge and anvil. I would like to ask if there is some way to locate a knifemaker/bladesmith in the Mobile, Al area that I could contact? I do not want to utilize the forum as a step by step source as I do not believe that is the purpose of this forum. Again thank everyone for their assistance |
#9
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Hang in there a bit and keep searching for someone fairly local to spend some time with. Lots of bladesmiths in 'Bama, Miss, LA, FL and GA. Just do some poking around on the net. Alabama has a big blacksmithing organiztion with a lot of knifemakers involved.
You will learn much faster than by yourself - a given. Good advice on beginner steel. Learn the easier steel first and get good with it, the rest will be easier once you have the basics worked out. If you are not against traveling/camping, you are welcome to come up to Trackrock at the end of the week to my hammer-in. See thread down in the Georgia Guild section here on KNF. You'd be more than welcome and can get some questions answered. I might even have some short pieces of 1084 you can take home with you, just depends on how many youngsters we have show up. __________________ Carl Rechsteiner, Bladesmith Georgia Custom Knifemakers Guild, Charter Member Knifemakers Guild, voting member Registered Master Artist - GA Council for the Arts C Rex Custom Knives Blade Show Table 6-H |
#10
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Well, until you find a mentor, speak up. Chances are that there are plenty of other folk in the world that are also interested in your questions and our answers. So please, don't feel guilty about using this forum as a resource to help you get started and improve your skills.
Since you are running a forge and want to do hot work I highly suggest taking a gander at: http://www.anvilfire.com/ Specifically this section of their site: http://www.anvilfire.com/iForge/ It has a list of tools and projects to make, many of them will help you hone your hammer and control skills, as well as being good projects you can market once you're happy with your abilities. |
Tags |
1084, 1095, 52100, anvil, art, beginning, blade, easy, forge, forged, hammer, hand, harden, heat, heat treat, knife, knife making, knives, making, material, newbie, post, simple, steel, stock removal |
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