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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 02-06-2010, 09:41 PM
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squigly1965 squigly1965 is offline
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What kind of Grinder/Sander should I get

I've decided to get a Belt Grinder/Sander or whatever when I get my Tax Return.

I'm thinking I have about $400 max to spend.

I would like help In making a decision on which one to buy.

Due to space I was thinking of a 2x48 or less

alrighty thanks for any help


Chris
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Old 02-06-2010, 09:57 PM
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AUBE AUBE is offline
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I would stick with a 2x72 if possible. There are many more belt options available. For that price range the only 2 options I can think of are a Grizzly http://www.grizzly.com/ or to make your own with the plans from http://www.usaknifemaker.com/ .

I own both a Grizzly and have made my own from the plans and both work well. I prefer the one I built though...it is more versatile. You can add more tooling arms with various sized wheels.
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  #3  
Old 02-06-2010, 10:03 PM
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DaveRuhlig DaveRuhlig is offline
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Chris-
With grinders the common answer is "get the best you can afford". If $400 is your budget I would look at the Grizzly or or the no weld grinder that Tracy Mickley sells the plans for. Both have been written about significantly here.
-Dave


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Old 02-06-2010, 10:06 PM
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squigly1965 squigly1965 is offline
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I found a place that has belt options from 36 to 400 for belts of 1x30 up to 2x72

the Grizzly would be the better option. Though It's a bit more than I am trying to spend

Cant really build one right now. Space is kinda limited
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  #5  
Old 02-06-2010, 10:21 PM
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AUBE AUBE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squigly1965 View Post
I found a place that has belt options from 36 to 400 for belts of 1x30 up to 2x72
In addition to looking at the grit sizes you also have to consider what the grit is made from and the stiffness of the belt. Are you able to get the smaller sizes in zirconia? How about in the orange Blaze ceramics (my favorite belts for moving metal)?. Can you get the backing of the belt in both stiff and flexible material? What about oddball belts like cork, leather, felt? (I never planned on using those types of belts but after trying a cork belt I now use it on a regular basis.)

Now if you answered yes to all of that....can you get all those options from various suppliers? It's always a good idea to have several sources. I had one supplier recently double his prices. I had another supplier a few years ago that lost a family member and shut down the business.

From my experiences 2x72" is the best belt size to get a wide variety of belts at a good price. When I first started I used a 4x36" and a 6x48"(which I still own) but I found both lacking and moved to the 2x72"....no regrets.

But if you can't afford, or have room for, a 2x72 then a 2x48" is better than nothing. I just feel the 2x72" would do better. But then a KMG does better than all of the above....it comes down to what we can justify getting.
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  #6  
Old 02-06-2010, 11:06 PM
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Here is a good starter grinder often overlooked
http://www.wwthayer.com/Kalamazoo-2FSM-Belt-Sander.asp


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  #7  
Old 02-06-2010, 11:46 PM
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squigly1965 squigly1965 is offline
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I was thinking of a Dayton one like that Kalamazoo and about the same in price

I'm really trying to justify the Grizzly. the other 2x72's I've seen had a much bigger footprint. i had heard the name a few times. but never seen the machine. I think it could be a choice but the Price is still a bit more than I want to spend.

Maybe they will get one in their scratch and dent section on the 16th as thats when I get my return


One question on the Grizzly How much of a need is the 10" wheel
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Old 02-07-2010, 03:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squigly1965 View Post

One question on the Grizzly How much of a need is the 10" wheel
Thats one thing I forgot to mention...some people find it a bit hard to hollow grind on a Grizzly since the motor is so close there is limited space. A 10" wheel will give you some added clearance for hollow grinding. But if you don;t hollow grind your blades then there isn't much use for the 10". I flat grind the majority of my blades and have both the standard wheel and the 10" and either wheel is fine...unless you plan on hollow grinding.

When I bought my Grizzly they had it on sale. I can't recall the exact price now but it was a pretty good deal. So if you wait they may go on sale again.

Too bad I'm not back at home or I'd offer to sell you mine...I have one sitting in a garage in Michigan while I'm on the other side of the world.
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  #9  
Old 02-07-2010, 08:09 AM
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NJStricker NJStricker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger1 View Post
Here is a good starter grinder often overlooked
http://www.wwthayer.com/Kalamazoo-2FSM-Belt-Sander.asp
IIRC, you can get that Kalamazoo without the motor--possibly giving you options for step pulleys and a more powerful motor.
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  #10  
Old 02-07-2010, 08:10 AM
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One thing that I don't see mentioned much is that you should size your grinder to the type of work you'll be doing with it.

I have a 2x36, a 1x42, and a 2x72. The workhorse of my shop for knife work is the 1x42, believe it or not. Because I make a lot of daily carry knives, the blades are 3.5" or less, and the 1x42 allows me a lot of flexibility and room to maneuver around the platen that the 2x72 doesn't. And it showed it's true usefulness when I started making folders as well, allowing much more intricate grinds on small parts. If I was making a lot of 5" or larger blades, I would almost certainly be using the 2x72 a lot more. And if I was making swords, I'd want something even bigger.


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  #11  
Old 02-07-2010, 08:29 AM
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Ed Caffrey Ed Caffrey is offline
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This is probably going to sound snobbish, but please don't take it that way. Save your money until you can get yourself a "good" 2 X 72" machine.

Many of us have been down the road of buying a lower end machine because it's all we could afford. We quickly became unhappy with it, and then tried to find a way to "upgrade" to the next level grinder, spent money there, and again, were unhappy with that machine, and so on. Eventually we got frustrated and purchased a top end 2 X 72" machine.

The point here is this: The lower end machines are not going to allow you to do what you want. (especially any of the 1" belt models) Most have terminal flaws in either the design or performance. Also, by the time you spend money 2-3 times going through different machines, you've spent more money and LOTS more frustration than you would if you just saved up and got a top end grinder in the first place.

When I first started I used homemade grinders that I built myself....it was nothing but gritted teeth and frustration. It took me 3 1/2 years to save enough money to purchase my first top end machine, but now, 27 years later, that machine is still in the shop, and used daily.

Now, all that I've said comes with the assumption that you intend to do this for the long term. Not only will a top end grinder make you a better knifemaker, but with simple routine maintenance, will last a lifetime. If you spend that $400 right now, I can pretty much promise you that within a couple of years your going to be spending it again, because the machine is just not going to hold up.

I say all of this simply because I've been there, and done that, and have seen many others do it too..... spend their money 2, 3, or even 4 times on a grinder, when they could have saved, purchased a good machine to start, and never have to do it again. Even if you find that knifemaking isn't for you, one of the top end grinders will hold it's value, and you could very easily sell it for nearly what you paid, where as the cheaper machines will be worth FAR less on the secondary market than what you paid for it.

One final thing... the reason that the top end grinders cost so much is not a name, its their quality and precision. They are going to have components that will hold up over the long haul, everything is going to be balanced and true, and they are going to last.
I remember my "early days" when I was trying to make knives, while still having to roll up pennies to buy milk for my daughter, so I understand funds being tight, but don't make yourself spend the money more than once....get a good machine to start, and you'll find that the only reason you'd ever make the purchase again is because you WANT another grinder.


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  #12  
Old 02-07-2010, 10:05 AM
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squigly1965 squigly1965 is offline
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I understand why I would want to wait. But here it is basically a hobby for me. Though I would Like it to be more. That isn't what it is. The work I've been doing as of late has been on a 3x18 belt sander. I AM going to upgrade.
Like I said I was trying to Justify the cost of the Grizzly. There is no way I could justify A KMG, Burr King, or the likes. Especially not for a hobby. I wish I could But I can't, that simple. $1000's aren't in my budget $100's are.

Mr. Caffrey I do respect your opinion and know that is it a honest and insightful view. I didn't want to seem like I disregarded your reply. I would be stupid to not take in what a man of your experience has to say on the subject. I know after all that you could just here the "but" coming. So here it is. But I plan on buying a grinder to help with my hobby. It isn't going to have any bells or whistle. Because I can't afford them. But it will be made for the job I put before it. I mean Unless you believe that, Me buying one of the lower end model grinders will actually regress my knife making experience, One of them will be the one I buy


I currently do have a Wanted Listing up in the local Craigslist for a 2x72. Maybe someone will be selling one who knows. Probably not but worth a try
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  #13  
Old 02-07-2010, 12:44 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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I just saw a post where someone mentioned seeing a Wilton for $600 on Craigslist but, of course, that's still a lot of money too. I would say that if you buy another grinder of any brand definitely go for a 2x72. The Griz is what it is, no more no less, and a lot of us have started on them. Most of us still have them in our shops many years later. I still use mine for heavy flat grinding jobs. As for the 10" wheel , you may never need it, I didn't, but if you do you can always add it later.

The best thing about the Griz is that it's a turn key system and it's very powerful. It's also, ugly, clunky, scary, and noisy too but it's rugged as heck and will probably last as long as your knife making career. Despite all the bad things we may say about the Griz it's still very hard to find one for sale at any significant discount off the original price. There's got to be a reason for that .....


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  #14  
Old 02-07-2010, 01:08 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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First recommendation is not to buy a bench sander and try to convert it over to a grinder. If you already have one and want to try it, that's one thing but to buy one for that purpose is wasted money. Personally, I found that draw filing and polishing with stones was not that much slower.

The Kalamazoo illustrated has limited, but adequate power, and is not really usable for hollow or slack belt grinding. A Grizzley with a 10" contact wheel would be a better buy. The Grizz has a mixed reputation from those who have used one, but that said, I have met a knifesmith who earned both his Journeyman's and Master's stamps using two of them. Both turn a little fast and, with the direct drive, there is little that can be done about it.

I use a Coote which is a little more expensive than the Grizzly but has more options. You can purchase it in stages. I bought my motor first, which I obtained used, for about the same amount of money that I wasted on a bench grinder. The motor that I got is 2hp and runs about 3600rpm. That is a little fast but I was able to correct for it with a smaller wheel on the motor than the drive wheel. If you stick to about 1800rpm, at least with a 10" drive wheel, you can use a step pulley and have a degree of speed adjustment.

As far as foot print goes with a two wheel grinder the difference between the 48" and 72" models is the length of the arm, which is pretty much verticle which leaves no appreciable difference in the foot print.

As far as what you can afford to lay out for a grinder is a decision that you will have to make. One man I corresponded with who sells Grizzlys through his site admitted to me that the KMG was a much better machine. However, he only makes one or two knives a month and he couldn't justify to himself laying out that kind of money with his financial obligations. Only you can judge what is affordable to you.

As far a a good source of belts go, I would recommend that you not go with the discount dealers. Discount belts are much more expensive in the long run. Instead of barely making it trough grinding a blade with one belt for each grade used with the cheap belts, the top grade belts just seem to keep going and going. I learned this lesson the hard way even though others told me this would happen and they were so right.

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Old 02-07-2010, 08:12 PM
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squigly1965 squigly1965 is offline
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After Looking at the options I have.
If I buy one it will Probably be a Grizzly.

Though that has become my second choice. I have been looking a lot at the DIY 2x72's on the net and have conclude, that I should be able to build one. I'm designing it right now. I have 10 or so days till i get my return so. What else am I going to do....LOL

I want to thank everyone for your contributions.

I'll let you all know how things go and what I ultimately decide.
I am thinking of going with a DC Motor because I already have a Variable Drive for one. I'm pretty sure it's good up to 1.5hp
are there any Cons on using DC motors?
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