Securing for heat treat

[Osprey Guy]

I'm working on a small folder with a very small blade, which is to be made out of Eggerling damascus. Unlike the blade on my "Rock 'n Roll" Typhoon (which was Norris stainless damascus, and heat treated in a friend's Paragon), I'm going to heat treat this carbon steel blade myself.

I've already talked with Bob (Eggerling) and he says it should be easy enough with the torch (until non-magnetic), quench in a (warmed) light viscosity oil, and tempered for one hour at 400 degrees in our kitchen oven.

My question is: How should I secure the blade while hitting it with the torch? If I just lay it down on a fire brick, when I go to check with a magnet I'm liable to find myself having to pull the (very hot) blade off of the magnet (if it's not yet "done").

BTW- This blade will be heavily carved. I've decided to do the basic grind first, then the heat treat, then do all the intricate carving (I have any one of a number of powered carvers at my disposal...and literally hundreds of diamond and carbide burs acquired over the past two years), so carving the hardened blade shouldn't be too tough.

Thanks.


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!

[AwP]

I'd probably hold the edge of the tang (pivot? I'm not sure what that part is called on folders) with some vice-grips, use some bits of leather to prevent scratching the surface. If you grip it along the spine side, you can lay the vice-grips down flat and it'll hold the blade securely edge up for you. That way it won't heat unevenly from torching only one side.

[flashinthepan]

Thom up here in New York..
If it's a small blade, how about filing a groove in some soft firebrick to make a holder ..
Set the blade in the groove, on edge, and hit er with the torch flame..
I use surgical forceps with long handles, and them don't heat up that much..
they are just the ticket for small items..
I use em to hold screws for heat blueing them for flintlocks.. heat em up cherry red, dunk em in motor oil; and wah-lah, they look old.. and don't rust !!
Another thing you can use is those real big tweezers, but I like the forceps best..
Hope it helps

Be well
Thom ( neo-dev0 limpi'n frog davis )

push on the chain ???

[cwp]

Dennis,

When I used a torch for heat treat, I wired a magnet to some fire_brick, and used a set of tongs to hold the blade while heating. That way, I had ahold of the blade, and brought it into the magnet. Having the magnet wired down, meant if the blade wasn't to non-magnetic, it was easier to get off of the magnet without burning myself.

--Carl

[DC KNIVES]

Dennis ,you can also use some needle-nose vicegrips with the tips ground smooth.The blade MUST be heated symetrically to avoid warping and be carefull when transferring to the quench.The one bad injury I have had in knifemaking occurred while doing this.I bumped something while shifting to the quench and dropped a 1500 degree blade and vicegrips point first into my knee.Cauterized the wound pretty good but still needed some stitches.Not to mention I bent the blade and ruined a perfectly good pair of jeans.I did straighten and redo the blade but kept it as a reminder. Good luck my friend.Dave

[Bob Warner]

I would just put a piece of wire through the pivot hole and heat up the blade, then use the wire to dunk the blade into the oil. You will want to harden the tang also. The wire will get hot but not break with a light blade. You will not weld the wire to the blade either because it will not get hot enough.

You can control the blade, the fire and the oil with this method.

Just my .02

[Osprey Guy]

Thanks guys...I knew you wouldn't disappoint...

The entire blade, from tip to tang (so to speak), will only be about 2 1/4"!!!
How's that for small?

There are several good ideas here...I'll have to ponder on which will work best for my needs.

As Bob Eggerling suggested, I picked up some transmission fluid. So now I also need to think about the best way to warm that up a bit and have it available nearby for the quench. I have a number of stainless bowls I use with my nitre salts. Perhaps one of those will prove sufficient...Maybe I should also pick up a cheap hot plate?

BTW- Congrats to Bob Warner on your column in KI! Quite a feather in your cap!


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!


PS. I figured this is as good a place as any to begin to spread the word...

I am going to be visiting Bob Eggerling's shop sometime in the next few weeks. I'll be taking a series of pics as he makes some of his fantastic mosaic damascus. These pics are to be used in a forthcoming book...

This book is to be the third in the series of extraordinary knife books by Dr. David Darom...As you all know, the first book is a gorgeous, full color "coffee table" book on Custom Folding Art Knives...The response to the book has been nothing short of amazing! The second book, which is coming along nicely and due to be on press in January (also printed in Italy, like the first book), will be devoted to fixed blades and if possible, it's even more fantastic!

The third will have a similar treatment (in terms of quality) except it will focus on the actual Making of Custom Knives...The very first time this subject has ever been covered at such a high level of quality and detail. One hundred makers are to be featured! I'll be talking a good deal more about the book in the coming months, as I will be very heavily involved in it's production).

Stay tuned...

[rlinger]

Bob's advise (using a wire) is the best I have yet seen for torch HT'ing. I have never torch HT'd but sure wish I could have used the wire technique in a horizontal forge (NOT!).

That small a OAL should not present a problem for you so long as it is not a high alloy steel. If a simple carbon steel I would try to be careful not to hold at non-magnetic for more than a few seconds (say 7 to 10 max after determining non-magnetic). Quench immediately and place in preheated temper before the steel falls below hand warm.

I hope you will give us a pix of that big camp knife when finished

RL

[luc]

Hey Dennis!
For your quench tank, you might want to try a surplus .50cal ammo can. They work really well and have a hinged lid in case you get a flair up.
(not that you have to worry about that with a small folder blade)
And to heat your oil you could try a electric charcoal starter (home depot) and a meat thermometer, just stick them both in the oil and wait till it hits temp.
As an after thought if you only plan on doing small blades you could get away with one of the smaller 30cal ammo cans. let me know if you want pictures of any of this stuff.
Good luck
Lucas

[Osprey Guy]

Yeh, I already realized the stainless bowls was a bad idea...

I'll check into the ammo cans while I'm out and about today...There's an army surplus store not far from here. Thanks for the suggestion...

I just got off the phone, talking long distance with a good friend (and terrific knifemaker) Larry Mensch. He suggested a length of steel pipe welded to a piece of flat steel plate (to serve as a stand). I don't have the capability to weld, but if need be he offered to make one up for me. (I'll probably take him up on that for future knives, but it'd be a week or two before I could hook up with him...and I don't want to wait that long).

I already have a good thermometer, which I use for the nitre salts. I hadn't thought of a charcoal starter,...nifty idea.


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!

[AwP]

He suggested a length of steel pipe welded to a piece of flat steel plate (to serve as a stand).

This would definately work, and be nice and sturdy. Only thing is you wouldn't be able to differential harden to get a hamon. A hamon is kinda overkill for a small blade like that performancewise, but it is awfully cool looking if you decide to try it.

[Bob Warner]

Just get out the deep fryer you use for chicken or french fries. Even the crock pot might get hot enough.

My quench tank is a large electric turkey roaster (with a broken glass top). It goes up to about 400 degrees, I just set it to 125 (by my thermometer) and quench away.

No need to build something elaborate, save the elaborate stuff for the knives, keep the easy stuff easy.

[Osprey Guy]

"Even the crock pot might get hot enough."

Sure, now you come up with the simple ideas...

I stopped off at the local Army/Navy Surplus store today...Picked up a 50 mm case for $11bucks. They were out of the smaller ones but will call when they come in.

Then I stopped off at Home Depot and got the electric charcoal starter ($9.95).
I already have a good thermometer.

I had hoped to find a fire brick at Home Depot, but they said "It's out of season for us...go to a fireplace store."

Bob- Can you explain a bit more about your wire idea?...Any thoughts as to how I should hang the wire? I'll of course want to be able to get the blade (hanging from the wire), into the nearby "quench tank" quickly...

Thanks,


Dennis Greenbaum

Yeah Baby!