the bounds of ignorance...

[AwP]

Hmm, maybe less then I thought use the full harden, but then again, those are just the ones I've read about and I certainly haven't read about every JS/MS test knife ever made, just a few of them. I don't recall where I read most of them but I can give one example right now. In Wayne Goddard's "$50 Knife Shop", on page 83 he specifically says...

I used a blade that was fully hardened and then tempered with a soft back draw to pass my ABS Journeyman Smith requirements.

So even if less testing smiths then I first suspected use that method, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen and won't work.

[Terry Primos]

Oh, no-no Mike. I didn't think you were bashing the ABS. You and I seem to be apologizing to each other a lot. We need to quit doing that. You are tops on my list bubba.

Regarding the amazing 5160 blade at Maryland, his process description was right in alignment with what the rest of us know and do -- nothing magic. It was just one of those things that makes you sit back and say "h-m-m-m...".

Sometimes stuff just happens I guess. There are still some things that baffle even the scientists.

[Terry Primos]

Originally Posted by AwP

Hmm, maybe less then I thought use the full harden, but then again, those are just the ones I've read about and I certainly haven't read about every JS/MS test knife ever made, just a few of them. I don't recall where I read most of them but I can give one example right now. In Wayne Goddard's "$50 Knife Shop", on page 83 he specifically says...



So even if less testing smiths then I first suspected use that method, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen and won't work.

Andrew,
That's what I'm saying. There are numerous ways to do the blades where they will pass the test. Fully hardening and drawing back the spine is one way. Using a torch to heat only the edge, then quench is another way. Heating the entire blade and doing an edge quench is another way. Clay treating is another way. The list goes on and on.

When Wayne drew back the spine with a torch, it was probably not just for 1/4" or so. He more than likely put the edge in some water, then slowly and methodically drew the spine back until he was 2/3 of the way to the edge or better. It would still be a narrow section that was really hard, with decreasing hardness as it traveled up the spine.

You and I are not in disagreement.

[fitzo]

Actually, I didn't think anyone did the torch-tempered spine anymore. That was how Zowada trained me, but that was like '87. When I started the forum-thing a few years back, everyone seemed to pooh-pooh that as passe technique. Said that it couldn't really temper the spine properly though I knew a lot of knives had been made that way. I was sincerely of the understanding that most all did the narrow-edge quench for their test blade. And I agree, I prefer a bit harder blade that doesn't bend so easily, and that the narrow edge is usually reserved only for the test for many, though not all.

Thanks for the clarifications, Terry! I try and learn as I'm presented with new information, I really do! LOL

Nonetheless, when I feel I've perhaps been wrong, I always feel an apology's in order. Like I said on that BF thread, when I intend to insult I have no subtlety whatsoever! Thanks for your kind understanding!

[Quenchcrack]

Ok, fair question. My real name is Bob Nichols. Quenchcrack is the name I use on www.keenjunk.com and www.anvilfire.com. I am one of the Gurus on Anvilfire. I am a Registered Professional Engineer, I have a Professional Masters Degree in Metallurgical Engineering. I taught Materials Engineering for 2 years at the University of Texas-Permian Basin. I have been heat treating steel since 1970, making knives by stock removal since 1980 and by forging since 2000. I am ONLY a hobby smith and do not consider myself a bladesmith worthy of inclusion among the artists on this site. I will not counsel anyone on how to make a knife. I do know heat treating but I naturally focus on what gives the best microstructure and best abrasion resistance. I guess I am old fashioned in that I can see no good reason to bend a blade 90 degrees to see if it is "worthy". I would not do that in real life, and I don't give a hoot what any Knife Society says. I would expect a knife to hold a fine edge through at least one deer carcass and two would be better. I hate stainless steel; prefer D2 or 1095; I do not hollow grind, only flat grind; tend to make sturdy working knives, not collectibles. I saw a lot of questions not getting answered fully and correctly on this site and just wanted to offer to help people understand what I have spent half of my life learning and doing. I am also an avid woodcarver and started smithing by making my own carving set. Thats who I am. Sort of. :cool:

[AwP]

Hmm, seems like we might have all found our common ground, I don't see anything left to debate :confused:.

p.s.

Actually, I didn't think anyone did the torch-tempered spine anymore. That was how Zowada trained me, but that was like '87. When I started the forum-thing a few years back, everyone seemed to pooh-pooh that as passe technique. Said that it couldn't really temper the spine properly though I knew a lot of knives had been made that way.

I like to draw the spine with a torch, though I'll give two full toaster-oven style temper at a lower temp first to make sure all the austinite is converted and the stresses relieved

[fitzo]

Thank you, Bob Nichols! I am more than pleased to make your acquaintance, and truly appreciate your detailed response. Your bona fides are thus obvious to all, as was your knowledge in prior posts. I think I speak for many in welcoming you here and welcoming your input.

I am a scientist at heart, and enjoy learning about, understanding, and demystifying bladesteel heat treating. I have quite a variety of steel texts, and am slowly, very slowly trying to work my way through Bain's "Alloying Elements in Steel". Jeesh, what a hard read for someone without the particular vocabulary of steel metallurgy.

Once, again, thank you! I look forward to reading what you are willing to teach.

[Hot&CoaledForge]

I've enjoyed and learned from your posts on Keenjunk, Bob, and it's good to see you here. You'll fit right in! - Jim

[Terry Primos]

Thanks for the introduction Bob. Yes, we're glad to have you here. Regarding the name thing, there are no rules regarding usernames and such around here. Fitzo (Mike Fitzgerald) wasn't really jumping your case about that.

A lot of us have been here since the beginning of what used to be the CKD forums. Through the years, we've all become quite close, and just like to know who we're talking to. That's all it was.

One thing I'd like to clear up (again) is:

Originally Posted by Quenchcrack

...I guess I am old fashioned in that I can see no good reason to bend a blade 90 degrees to see if it is "worthy". I would not do that in real life, and I don't give a hoot what any Knife Society says...

The ABS does not preach that all knives should be able to bend 90 degrees. That part of the test is just to insure that the applicant "can" control his chosen medium.

#######

Andrew,
Do you and I share common ground now? I wasn't sure if it was you and I, or you and Fitzo, or all of us combined in your last post.

[AwP]

Do you and I share common ground now? I wasn't sure if it was you and I, or you and Fitzo, or all of us combined in your last post.

Well I had meant Fitzo, because you had pretty much taken the middle ground in the discussion, so you were already on common ground with both of us. You agreed with some of my points and with some of his so you weren't really on UNcommon ground with anyone to begin with. So basically all three of us though you were already there.

[Gary Hamilton]

I think there was a request earlier for book suggestion. I would enjoy reading any suggested book people feel is useful. My knowledge is fairly limited to using ovens at the real job and books on tool steels. Although I need to learn more about forging, my current focus is to learn about treating some of the newer metals in ovens.

Any suggestions for me?

[fitzo]

I'm glad for this thread. I've learned, and I like that. I don't like giving out misinformation, the original topic of this thread, and hope I am enough of a person to always admit when I'm not right. I've proven to myself once again that it's easy for me to be wrong! There's gotta be a lesson in that somewhere for me, if I'll only learn.

And, Bob, hope I wasn't too offensive. Sorry. This new forum is very important to us, and having people on board who can lead and guide us is very welcome.

Thanks, folks!

[whv]

welcome to ckdf ..er, ah.. knf, bob. good stuff.

[rhrocker]

Here's a tutorial by quenchcrack on metallurgy. I copied it out and took it with me to the coast over the weekend. Enjoyed reading through it. Will now go back through it with a highlighter and make a few notes. This is a great resource. http://www.iforgeiron.com/Blueprints/BP0078Metallurgy%20of%20HT/BP0078%20Metallurgy%20of%20HT%20w-pix.htm

[fitzo]

Thanks, Robert, it's both bookmarked and printing right now!

Welcome back, glad you had a nice trip!