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Heat Treating and Metallurgy Discussion of heat treatment and metallurgy in knife making.

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  #1  
Old 12-15-2010, 01:57 AM
jwfilion jwfilion is offline
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Any heat treating color charts?

I was wondering if anyone has a chart showing the actual color of metals at the important temperatures during the heat treat process. I was working on some O-1 blade material, and thinking I had reached the quench temperature, I quenched and tempered it, but found it too soft. Having no oven or means to have it done professionally, I have been relying on second hand info to heat treat the blades. For instance, I keep hearing the term "heat to cherry red in a dark area of your shop". Which cherry? Maraschino, Bing? My shop has a variety of lighting.
A chart showing the colors of different blade materials, at different important temperatures would be a great asset to guys like me. I'd love to make a small propane oven just to treat the small folder blades I make, but even if I could find plans, I would still need to know the colors involved. Any ideas?

BTW... I am a 'one at a time' maker. It is not cost effective to send out one blade at a time from where I live.


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  #2  
Old 12-15-2010, 07:24 AM
Kostoglotov Kostoglotov is offline
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http://threeplanes.net/toolsteel.html

Ambient light will effect how the colors appear Vs the chart.

IMO the chart is usefull as a "Go By", but there are too many other variables that make it less than ideal.

Are you using a magnet?
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  #3  
Old 12-15-2010, 11:50 AM
jwfilion jwfilion is offline
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Kostoglotov, thanks for your reply. I have that chart already and found it useful, however in a well lit shop, it is hard to go by colors.I have used the magnet method mostly. This time it failed. I'm starting to wonder if using the magnet too often can cause it to fail. Generally, I would heat the blade on both sides until it would get close to temperature, then hang the magnet from the bottom and heat the top until the magnet fell off, then quench immediately. Perhaps it's time to get another magnet.


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  #4  
Old 12-15-2010, 03:39 PM
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racinca racinca is offline
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Wayne, how are you heating your blades? From the posts above, it sounds like you are using a torch which will give inconsistent results with O1. The O1 needs a soak time at critical temp (about 1475 degees F) in order to achieve full hardness. The recommended soak time is a half hour per inch of thickness, which means that for a typical blade you need to hold it at the critical temperature for about 5 to 7 minutes. I think that will be very difficult (or impossible) to do with a torch. I heat mine in an electric kiln, but you could certainly regulate a propane forge to do it as well.

The color chart is going to be virtually useless to you in this process. The magnet is definately a better way to go.
Tony
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  #5  
Old 12-15-2010, 03:44 PM
son_of_bluegras son_of_bluegras is offline
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Most magnets, if overheated will lose magnetism.
In full daylight, my eyes can't see any glowing colors when steel reached critical. Depending on how bright your shop is you may be at or above critical without seeing any colors.
I like to heat treat in a fairly dark shop and look for the darkening that accompanies the phase change in steel.

ron


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Old 12-15-2010, 08:39 PM
jwfilion jwfilion is offline
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Thanks guys, I guess I've been doing this all wrong. I knew about the soak time, but didn't know O-1 steel required it. What I learned came from an old machinist. The magnet I used was from an old coil core an electrician gave me . Super strong when I started using it. I realize now that I'm going to have to make a small propane oven. As I also make larger knives occasionally, It will have to be longer as well. Am I correct in assuming that if I gradually turn up the heat and use a tempstik, if I can find one, that I will be close enough? I am a bit paranoid about the quality of my work and it makes me sick to think I may have unknowingly given someone a bad blade in the past. Again, thanks for your response.


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  #7  
Old 01-16-2011, 06:36 AM
WBE WBE is offline
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#1. Use a simple 10XX steel. 01 is not a simple steel, it is alloyed and requires more than a torch to heat treat.
#2. All steel loses magnetism at 1414?. That is too low of heat for any high carbon steel to make a good solution of austenite which requires 1450? to 1500?.
#3. Common table salt melts at 1474?. A very good heat range for the 10XX steels and 01, but the 01 does need a controlled heat soak of about 20 minutes at temp, before quench. It is also best if presoaked at 1250? for 30 minutes to an hour while before going to the higher heat.
#4. I am afraid your second hand info is very poor.
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Old 01-16-2011, 12:39 PM
jwfilion jwfilion is offline
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WBE, thank you for your response and for the info.


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Old 01-16-2011, 04:44 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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As WBE pointed out, second hand information can be misleading. What is fine for one steel is inadiquate or totally wrong for another. Unfortunantly we can get into quite a discussion/aguement on these boards about the heat treating of various steel; I have read that O1 is both easy and demanding to heat treat.

Some points to remember is that the non-magnetic point is only an indicator of austinization, like the "shaddow" that passes across a bar of steel. To test for non-magnetic, the steel is only touched breafly to the magnetic; the magnet is not left in the fire or it will loose it's magnetism. This, in itself, is not enough because. as mentioned, the steel has to get a little higher in temperature. The carbon in the steel also has to be given time to go into solution in the austinite as well as other elements in the alloy. This is where heat control comes in whether that is holding the steel in a regulated oven or interupting the soak by removing the steel for a few seconds at a time to prevent it from over heating and growning grain.

With a gas forge regulating the heat is achieved, usually, by regulating the flow of the air/gas mixture. With a solid fuel forge this is regulated by controling the air blast. Controling the heat in a forge is probably the best way to decreasing grain growth which is a funtion of time and temperature with temperature being the most critical.

Steel selection is also important. The simple 10XX series of steel have fewer alloying elements to deal with. They are largely no longer the alloy of iron, carbon, and manganese in various porportions that it used to be because most of the steel available is recycled instead of virgin melts but these other elements are kept low. Towards the other end of the spectrum are complex steels that demand very close temperature control to forge and heat treat. All the alloys of steel have their advantages and disadvantages that are part of the system of trade-offs that constitue knife making.

Doug Lester


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  #10  
Old 01-16-2011, 05:30 PM
WBE WBE is offline
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01 is very easy, if you have proper equiptment to regulate heat. I love the stuff because of the abrasion resistance, and I don't forge, I grind. 01, normally, comes in a spheroidized annealled condition, and is nicely finished, which puts it in a perfect pre-heat treat condition. No need to normalize, unless it has been forged, just stress relieve as a step in the heat treat, and it is fine. Most has vanadium which prevents carbon from collecting in the grain boundaries, which weakens steel, and it retards grain growth while adding more carbides. But, it must have a good soak, at a controlled heat to reach it's highest potential. With 01, it is definantly a case of time at temp. It takes a while for the chrome, tungsten, and vanadium to homogenize with the carbon and iron, so that it can be at it's best. From experience, and experimentation, 01 is a tad on the brittle side if treated as a simple steel. 01, treated as a simple steel, will still impress you as far as holding an edge, but it will not have the strength required for heavy duty use. It can also be looked at in an economic sense. 01 is expensive compared to the 10XX steels, and if you cannot heat treat 01 properly, the much cheaper 10XX steels may easily out perform it, and are easier to heat treat properly.
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  #11  
Old 01-17-2011, 02:00 AM
jwfilion jwfilion is offline
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Thanks guys, I guess the recipe for 0-1 has changed since the old guy started making tools in the 30's. I remember some of the heavy cuts on the lathe he used to take with these old tools and they stood up pretty good. He said all he used was a gas blow torch and used machine oil. I guess if I can't find cheap, but reliable heat treating services somewhere, I will will have to try some 1095 I have hidden some place. Thanks again.


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Old 01-17-2011, 12:25 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Wayne, if you want to try 1095 I would suggest that you get it from The New Jersey Steel Baron, aka Aldo Bruno. Some of the 1095 out there has rather low manganese levels and has been problematic when it comes to quenching. Aldo had a melt made for him that was designed with the knifesmith in mind. The 1095 that I got from Admiral Steel a few years ago I could only get it to harden properly in brine. You might want to consider 1080 or 1084. They are both reputed to be easier to heat treat than 1095.

As far as your friend with the O1 goes, yes the assay on the steel he used could have been slightly different than what you are dealing with. He also may have been able to achieve good, that's good for the job that he had to do, heat treating with a torch and used motor oil. That description also only sayes what he used, not how he used it. It's sort of like saying that all you need to do to forge steel is the heat it up and hit it with a hammer. Cutting tools for a metal lathe also have different requirements than a knife blade. For one thing, flexability would not be an issue. There could be several reasons why heating with a torch worked for him but not for you.

Doug Lester


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  #13  
Old 01-17-2011, 01:35 PM
jwfilion jwfilion is offline
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Wink

Thanks Doug, I was just reading about the Steel Baron on another thread. Will look at his site soon. Actually, I just want a blade steel that will give me a great edge, will shine nice, if I choose a mirror finish and most of all, I can heat treat with the tools I have. I believe very strongly about sole authorship when it comes to the stuff I make. That's why I got into engraving and scrimshaw, so I could do it all myself. I guess I should have paid more attention during the metallurgy part of my schooling, but there was this girl apprentice...


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Old 01-17-2011, 03:03 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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I've run into a few distractions myself; made the mistake of marrying three of them-sequentally, of course. Metallurgy and heat treating are challanges in themselves and there is a lot of advice out there, some much better than others.

Doug Lester


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