1095 steel question?

[claymoore]

Normalizing stock removal 1095

So people say a 1200 F 1hr. for stress relieving ( is that the same thing as normalizing?). Some say take it to 1500 f 3 times, each time let it cool to room temp. Is there a standard rule of thumb for 1095. What say some of you guys on normalizing. This is of course after profiling and grinding a HT edge. Thanks.

[Doug Lester]

The 1200? would be sub critical stress relieving which is also called spherodizing not normalization and I would probably take it up closer to 1275?.

Normalization is where you start out at about 1500? and do 3 cycles in descending temperature if you have the capability of judging descending temperature, cooling to about ambient temperature between. If you don't have a regulated heat source that can give you that kind of control then just try to do three cycles heating to about 1500?.

Of course, if you are working with an air quenching steel you will be unable to normalize without regulating how fast the steel cools in a programable oven. In that case a subcritical heat treatment might be what you have to resort to to relieve stress.

Doug

[R. Yates]

Look here it has most all Steels that Most knife makers use .

http://hudson-metals.com/

for use in the future for some info ... However it does NOT have what you are looking for now .

Here Is what Nick Wheeler did / does with his and is a direct quote !

"Well, I don't claim to be an expert, but I have spent a heck of a lot of time getting this stuff to work for me.

I use a salt bath, which I know you don't have, but I'll give you some numbers anyway.

First off, what bladesmiths refer to as normalizing is not what is accepted as normalizing in industry.

I use the term rather loosely, as I use it to describe the thermal cycles I put blades though.

While I highly recommend following industry standards for the most part, so you don't have to reinvent the wheel... there are acceptions.

Doing the temps in the book will relieve stress and make a fairly fine grain.

However, if you want to create the optimal set-up for clay-hardening, I think the numbers need to be tweaked.

I first run the blade though the salt at 1600, then 1550, then 1500, 1450, and 1400 three times. This will set up the blade with an extremely fine grain, and actually reduce the hardenability. That's a good thing if you want a hamon.

A simple run of 1400X3 or 1450X3 will do... but the above works even better for me."

The info is from Nick Wheeler .

Sam

[Doug Lester]

I will have to agree about sticking with industrial standards of metallurgy but you always have to keep in the back of your mind that those standards were, for the most part, not developed with the knife maker in mind. There are some things that no longer hold up once you get to about 1/4" or less. One is hardenability if you get the grain super fine the steel, usually the very simple 10XX or W series will no longer harden except on a fine edge. So if you grind your blades down to about the thickness of a dime before hardening you will end up with pearletic steel in the edge with no martensite. There is just too much heat in the mass to allow the steel to cool quickly enough to harden.

My best guess is that this doesn't happen often but Ed Caffrey did mention that it happened to some 1095 blades that he made. The good news is that it can be corrected by soaking at a higher temperature to grow the grain and then correcting again. Just not as much.

Doug

[claymoore]

Thanks Sam & Doug,
Those temps Nick Wheeler is talking about are they the same for lets say a 1/8" neck knife?
Is it safe to say do Wheeler's normalizing cycle. You get done, it's cooled down. Then take the blade back up to 1475F (1095) hold 2 min or so and then quench and temper right after. One of the reasons i'm asking all these questions is i see that 1095 is quite cheaper than 1084 and i would like to get 1095 down to where it's not a issue. I have an oven have had good success with 1084 but have been keeping away from 1095.
Do either of you use 1095 and if so what do you do?
Thanks again
Clay

[Doug Lester]

I really don't have the equipment set up for handling 1095 or any other strongly hypereutecoid steels, though I am thinking about setting up my burn out kiln to do the job. Because of that I can't really comment on taking the austinizing temperatures for normalization down in steps. I would, however recommend that if you are going to hold the steel at 1475? that you extend the austenizing time prior to quenching a bit longer. I would try at least 5 minutes and maybe as long as 10. It would help if you had a way to test the HRc of the steel as quenched to see if the hardness falls off at about 10 minutes as opposed to 5. A drop off could suggest elevated retained austinite.

Another way to check would be to make two test blades and soak one at temperature for 5 minutes before quenching and the other at 10 minutes then temper them together. You could then do a cutting test(s) with both blades and see if the one soaked for 10 minutes seems significantly softer. If the 5 minute blade seems softer than the 10 minute blade, and this applies if you have a hardness tester, then you are not getting enough carbon into solution at 5 minutes.

Doug

[claymoore]

Thanks for your and Sam's help , i stated DIARY well lets say to late. I never going to noT write the process I'V done on a blade,
THANKS GUYS YOUR AWESOME
cLAY

[R. Yates]

Like Doug's Signature says :

"If you're not making mistakes then you're not trying hard enough"

I have always Loved that every since I heard it many years ago and rolled in the floor when I seen it on Doug's post . many times we (other knife makers) give out information to young or new smith's and they do not use it or even try it , much less keep a journal on the different projects they do leaving them with yet the same questions over yet again . I am Not saying you are like this Claymoore it is good to see you follow up on you question post and we as Smiths Like to see progression works .

Sam

[claymoore]

Originally Posted by Sam Cro

Like Doug's Signature says :

"If you're not making mistakes then you're not trying hard enough"

I have always Loved that every since I heard it many years ago and rolled in the floor when I seen it on Doug's post . many times we (other knife makers) give out information to young or new smith's and they do not use it or even try it , much less keep a journal on the different projects they do leaving them with yet the same questions over yet again . I am Not saying you are like this Claymoore it is good to see you follow up on you question post and we as Smiths Like to see progression works .

Sam

Thank you for your time answering questions Sam, Doug..... It is quite a hobby to pick-up it gets all consuming with all the different techniques. But i think if you really get into it you do a lot of reading ect.. I know that i speak for a lot of people when i say that " i can make a servicable blade, but i want to make a really good blade". Thanks again.

[R. Yates]

You are welcome Claymoore, if I can be of help I will do my best to do so Yet I am far from the best I just do my best .

Sam