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Fine Embellishment Everything from hand engraving and scrimshaw to filework and carving. The fine art end of the knifemaker's craft.

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  #1  
Old 02-03-2006, 06:33 AM
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Tim W Tim W is offline
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Patriots heads up

I called two suppliers yesterday to get a piece of sterling to make a bracelet from. Both Stuller and Hoover & Strong asked for my social security number to order anything from them. They cited the new "Patriot Act" as their reasoning to invade my privacy.

I don't know about you folks but I had my identity stolen just after 911 and it cost me a job. I served 10 years of my young life in the military with a secret security clearance or better and quite frankly didn't like being treated like some terrorist in my own country.

Now this happens and I feel raped, might as well live in a fish bowl. I told them both to cancel my order on principle alone. I figure if they need my SSN then I don't need what they are selling, I don't and won't have some company keeping "track" of me.

I wanted to let you all know about this for two reasons.

1.) A forewarning to let you know what you may expect.

2.) To ask if any of you have run into this before.

I don't understand why they would need that particular info as if a credit card number and address isn't enough. It's not like I was trying to buy an UZI over the phone or something. Anybody have any clue why this is happening? Hoover & Strong said that I didn't have to give the info but if they were audited and didn't have that information then the government would call me about it...????
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  #2  
Old 02-03-2006, 07:41 AM
Ray Cover Jr Ray Cover Jr is offline
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I believe my response would be "Let them call me!"

If you were buying nitrate fertilizer, or some other bomb materials I can understand but a piece of silver??????????????????????????????

I don't give out that kind of personal info over the phone to anybody. My credit card company does not even use SSN for ID they use a password like pets name or mother in laws maiden name.

Ray


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  #3  
Old 02-03-2006, 09:05 AM
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mgdesigns mgdesigns is offline
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I had the same thing happen with Glines & Rhodes in Attleboro, MA. I had used them to refine my sweeps, and just sent off 3 bags of vacuum cleaner dirt for refining, and I had to fill one of those forms out for them to continue. They already had my dust and dirt, and I wanted my $$$, so I filled out the form and sent it on it's way. I really have nothing to hide, but now to hear your responses, maybe I should be more discreet.

Mark
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Old 02-03-2006, 09:57 AM
paintor paintor is offline
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Ain't socialism great! And by the way Bush, we are a Republic, not a Democracy.


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  #5  
Old 02-03-2006, 10:07 AM
MCirelli MCirelli is offline
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Big brother is starting to really watch everyone. If you have a federal ID, or sales tax number for your business they should except that.
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  #6  
Old 02-03-2006, 10:22 AM
steve ellsworth steve ellsworth is offline
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thoughts

I think you should take a litttle time and report this event to the feds
the patriot act does not give a corporate entity the right to ask for or database your ssan
even the fed has to ask for written permission to release or use your socail for any purpose
something stinks here!
if they really want to track you they can use your ####### ####### number
it carrries across state lines via the law enforcement network ncic
when in doubt just give them a false number
they will never know the difference nor can they track it to see if its accurate

it could be just one particular employee of that company that is asking for this information
perhaps speaking to someone higher up might resolve the issue and land someone in the clink

steve
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  #7  
Old 02-03-2006, 10:34 AM
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TikTock TikTock is offline
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Yep. SSN is only legally usable by the Federal government if I am not mistaken. I worked at Lowes home inprovment for a summer and they use SSn as your employee ID and someone alerted management that it was an illegal practice, and they were forced to change their policy.

Its a double edged sword, though. Its also anyone's right to ask for it, and if you choose not to give it, they can as a business chooose not to deal with you. Just like credit checks. You dont have to consent to them when youre buying a house, but you can't buy a house without one....


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  #8  
Old 02-03-2006, 04:58 PM
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Shakudo Shakudo is offline
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just got home and read the thread. my question is.....did you bother to talk to Torry Hoover at Hoover & Strong ? it is usually better to ask the person in the know than a sales person at the general office desk.
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  #9  
Old 02-03-2006, 05:31 PM
Brian Marshall Brian Marshall is offline
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The "Patriot Act" has been in the works for almost two years? (Not sure exactly

All jewelers have been aware it was coming for at least a year. As far as the jewelers trade magazines have interpreted it - it should only apply at a certain level, which I believe is much higher than most folks on this forum should have be involved with.

What you are seeing at the refiners - is a "blanket" kind of compliance to the law - whether it actually applies to you as an individual or not. Lawyers for these companies make the company rules. Unfortunately, they don't always read the law correctly. (You really do not wanna get me started on lawyers

Since it is indeed a Federal law, and the it is Feds who ultimately want the infomation, you do have to provide it. However, instead of giving my personal SS#, I gave them my Employers ID#.

Welcome to the paranoia induced by 911...

Brian
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  #10  
Old 02-03-2006, 06:35 PM
MCirelli MCirelli is offline
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If your going to open an account with them or any company they will want your ssn, home address and sales tax number or in some states resale certificate. If your on a cod basis they should only need a copy of your resale lic. if even that. Try United Prescious Metals in NY.
Mike
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  #11  
Old 02-03-2006, 06:35 PM
J Gibson J Gibson is offline
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I recently went through a similar incident with the U.S. Postal Service. In order to renew my postal box I was required to show up with two copies of photo I.D. as was my wife, and if any one else was getting mail at this same address, they would also need to present I.D.
I have recieved my mail at this address since establishing my residency here 26 years ago.My daughter is a mail carrier out of this postoffice. I have honorably served in the U.S. Army, seen combat and been decorated. While a commisioned officer I could carry a firearm any where in the country. I carry aconcealed carry permit, have been on the county S.O. search and rescue. I guess if I wore different head gear this would not have happened. I am also NOT politically correct.
This s--- is going on all over the country, even in a small rural town in the heartland.I find certain satisfaction that I am over 60 years and won't have to put up with this c--- much longer.
J. Gibson
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  #12  
Old 02-03-2006, 08:26 PM
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Shakudo Shakudo is offline
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if you want to read the law,here is what i found.

http://www.jvclegal.org/t_patriotsact.html
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  #13  
Old 02-05-2006, 11:49 PM
en2siastic en2siastic is offline
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Patriots heads up

Hello,
This is just an information.

Several months ago, we had a contest on this forum about the logo of the I.A.E.A. The International Association of Engraving Arts.

Right now Iran is in trouble with his nuclear programm, and who is in charge to check them ? The I.A.E.A
The International Atomic Energy Agency.

Maybe that's why they ask for your SSN when you buy silver ?
Well just a joke................

This site is great, thank you

Best regards.

Francis
Belgium
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  #14  
Old 02-06-2006, 07:12 PM
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Tim W Tim W is offline
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Shakudo,
Thanks for that link, that explains things a bit better. Although I don't understand why these companies would ask for that personal information on someone buying a $25.00 piece of low domed sterling bar stock for personal use. I believe that falls well below the $50,000.00 threshold on when they are "encouraged" but not required to report suspicious activity.

The ladies at both places sounded like a broken record saying that "we are just trying to comply with the patriot act" but what they didn't read or understand was the whole jist of it. I guess it's a lack of training or just a blanket policy to simplify matters for them but penalize us as a by-product.

Oh well, life is good. We're still above ground.
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  #15  
Old 02-07-2006, 05:34 AM
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Andrew Garrett Andrew Garrett is offline
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That I.A.E.A thing tickled me the first time I noticed it and I said nothing. I'm glad someone else mentioned it.

I guess the highly conductive nature of some precious metals make it desirable for those who would like to get their little WMD making hands on it it. Hence, the SSN requirement.

Dave said it very well. You are only required to give your SSN to the IRS and to a law enforcement official in the discharge of his/her duties. Many others will ask for it, like credit providers, your state Dept. of Motor Vehicles, gun dealers, etc.

You can refuse and go about your merry way without credit, a driver's #######, a gun, etc. These items are only priveledges. They are not rights. Your rights are itemized in the constitution. (Before someone invokes the 2nd Ammendment, yes we all have the right to OWN a gun, but it is not the government's responsibility to provide us with one. Hence, ownership is our right, not the gun itself. Then there is that whole "well regulated thing"... I know... it sucks.)

The ugly truth is that if you want to enjoy modern life with modern convenience, you have to trust others with personal information.

My father (ultra conservative) won't even send his credit card with the waitress to pay for a meal, because she might jot down the numbers and use it for her own purposes. Ever thought about that?


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