Normalizing medium

[Hurley]

I know the big answer will be vermiculite, but I wondered because I have 20lbs of sandbox grade sand just sitting there. Could I put that in a 5 gal bucket and use it instead? You know me, always trying to save a buck! I did a search, but sand caught "sandpaper" and brought up half the threads on this site.

[Ray Rogers]

You're not talking about normalizing, you're talking about annealing if you plan on putting a very hot blade into any medium (other than maybe quench plates). Anyway, no, sand isn't a particularly good idea because it could contain moisture and really isn't a super good insulator anyway.

Wood ash is even better than vermiculite if you happen to have a source of enough of it. I have a 55 gallon drum of it for annealing (5 gallons will work if the blade is very small but more is better when annealing is the question). Anyway, vermiculite isn't very expensive and it would be better than sand ...

[Crex]

Depending on the steel, the sand will actually act more like a poor quench. It will pull the heat out fast enough to semi harden some of the higher carbon steels like 1095, O1, 52100, etc. O1 will get so hard you won't be able to drill it.
Even with ash or vermiculite, the medium has to be moisture free to work well. Good practice to pre-heat or warm up the medium with a scrap chunk of heated steel.
As Ray said, looks like you are confusing normalizing with annealing. While similar they are different thermal cycling procedures and accomplish different effects on the steel.
Study up a bit more Keith and you will see the difference between the two.

[Hurley]

Thanks once again guys! Pretty soon I'll owe my first-born or something! Well I got confused because on the DVD I bought from Eli, he called it normalizing. But he did use vermiculite and talked about refining the grain structure with about three different cycles. Maybe I am confused as it wouldn't be the first time.

[Ray Rogers]

QUOTE: Pretty soon I'll owe my first-born or something!

You think you can get off that easy? Ha! Nope, you have to raise it yourself, buddy! Once she's at least 21 and works as a swimsuit model then I'll take her and not one minute sooner ....

[Ray Rogers]

With normalizing, you're pulling the blade from the heat, holding it in the air until it turns black, putting it back in the heat. This can be done up to three times to refine the grain and its a good time to gently work out any warping you may have. After you're done with the optional normalizing steps then you heat again and quench.

Annealing is when you take the red hot steel and put it in some insulating medium like vermiculite or wood ash and leave it for 24 hours or longer. The purpose of annealing is to soften the steel so that it can be easily drilled or sawed. This is the state most steel is in when you buy new steel from a reputable dealer ....

[Crex]

According to most of the reading research I have done, only a few of the usual forgable steels, like 1084, 1070, etc. can be truly annealed in the vermiculite or ash bucket slow cool. Most of the alloyed steels require pretty exacting thermal steps and soaks to achieve true anneals (this is just from reading, not trying to start an argument here).
I usually don't worry about it since in the process of forging out a blade it's being thermal cycled quite a bit. I do normalize all my blades at least 3 times before HT and often during the forging process when I know I will be taking a break or getting away from the forge for any length of time.

[Ray Rogers]

I agree with Carl, the process I described is for 1084 and similar simple steels. Although Keith didn't say what he was using he is a regular in our Sunday Chat Room and from that I did assume that he is talking about processing a simple carbon steel ...

[Hurley]

Yes Ray, carbon steel...don't have an oven, just a forge.

[jmccustomknives]

Another cheat is to get some oil dry. It's cheap and readily available. If annealing is still a problem you can get a thick piece and heat it up with your blade and put them in together. The added mass will slow the rate of cooling.

[mete]

Watch out for the high carbon steels especially 1095 when annealing !!
If the steel is cooled very slowly at the higher temperatures the carbide can collect in the grain boundaries .This creates a VERY BRITTLE blade .It will break if you drop it and it probably will break when used !!

[Hurley]

Noted mete, thanks for the heads up!