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  #1  
Old 07-25-2002, 11:48 AM
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Bob Sigmon Bob Sigmon is offline
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The Right to Leave

I was just sent this in an Email, thought I'd share.

Bob Sigmon

"After hearing that the state of Florida changed its opinion and let a
Muslim woman have her picture on her ####### ####### with her face
covered, I believe this is even more appropriate. Read on, please!

This is an Editorial written by an American citizen, published in a Tampa
Newspaper. He did quite a job; didn't he?

IMMIGRANTS, NOT AMERICANS, MUST ADAPT.
I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some
individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, we
have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Americans.
However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the
"politically correct" crowd began complaining about the possibility that
our patriotism was offending others. I am not against immigration, nor do
I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to
America. Our population is almost entirely comprised of descendants of
immigrants. However, there are a few things that those who have recently
come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand.
This idea of America being a multicultural community has served only to
dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Americans, we have
our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle.
This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and
victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom. We speak
ENGLISH, not Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other
language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the
language! "In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some
Christian, right wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because
Christian men and women, on Christian
principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is
certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God
offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as
your new home, because God is part of our culture. If Stars and Stripes
offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously
consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our
culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you
did things where you came from. This is OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our
lifestyle. Our First Amendment gives every citizen the right to express
this opinion and we will allow you every opportunity to do so. But, once
you are done complaining, whining, and griping about our flag, our
pledge, our national motto, or our way of life, I highly encourage you to
take advantage of one other great American freedom, THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.
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  #2  
Old 07-25-2002, 01:22 PM
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Roger Gregory Roger Gregory is offline
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Interesting article but isn't 'E Pluribus Unum' your national motto? I thought 'In God We Trust' was added by McCarthy and Eisenhower in the 1950s.

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  #3  
Old 07-25-2002, 01:51 PM
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Yeah...

Yes and no on this one...

The Founding Fathers were Deists. Deism is the belief in a 'Deity,' with the assumption that ALL Deities are manifiestations of something greater. They believed that 'God,' could be expressed mathematically. They were insistent on the absolute separation of Church and State.

Those Americans living in territory ceded to the U.S. during the Mexican-American War have the right, by signed treaty, to maintain the culture and their -language-. This one is pending in the Supreme Court with regard to English language laws in the state of California.

It seems from observation that the cultural adaptation is mutual. In the 50's we sent government employees into Italian neighborhoods to make sure their food wasn't touching... you see, they cook all their food in one pot and that's just plain un-American. These days we all like spagetti.

I do think the veil thing is silly... but if that's her religious belief then there needs to be a process ( i.e. court case ) for determining the balance between public need ( to see a face on I.D. ) and the Free Expression of Religion...

Roger I think 'In God We Trust,' has always been on the moolah, but it was put there by Deists who took it a little differently.

I think you are referring to the '...under God,' part of the Pledge. That was added by the McCarthyites to help distinguish us from the Godless Commies. There is no doubt which God they meant and there are quotes to prove it. I have always felt imposed upon when I hear that particular phrase. I don't ask people to Pledge to any of my Goddesses...

That oughta make me popular!

I LOVE this country. Sometimes I fear my government, that's all. I think the Founding Fathers would agree that I am only doing my duty trying to make this a BETTER place.


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Old 07-25-2002, 02:06 PM
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SharpByCoop SharpByCoop is offline
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Wink Now you did it!

Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Sigmon
If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.
Not so sure about that. This begs the question: "Whose God?"

This was THE founding reason for the Declaration of Independence. To allow our young nation the freedom to choose their form of religion and to be able to practice it without fear of repression, or worse.... Although there were plenty of Christians working together in this formation, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams were not--and had a HUGE say in the document. *

The woman who wanted her picture with the veil had a 'religious' need to appear that way. Not a cultural one. The difference is that she was granted this wish, to accomodate the basic USA premise that allows her to practice her religion without intervention. As it should be. She wasn't an extremist, so don't even compare them.

* Thomas Jefferson and John Adams were Unitarians, as I am. It's not a religion in itself, but an 'approach' to religion. You choose your path.

I'm not upset at all about this ruling, nor the ommission of the wording of 'God' in the Pledge of Allegience. I'm standing pretty alone in this crowd, though. Tough noogies!

Coop

Edit: (Jon and I were writing furiously at the same time on this one!!!)


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Old 07-25-2002, 02:25 PM
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During the stormy early days of the American Revolution...or War for Independence...people who were free-thinkers or those not willing to follow "popular opinion" were branded Tories by the "Sons of Liberty"...usually tarred and feathered...and sent packing to Canada or elsewhere. ( I don't think our Canadian brothers ever really forgave us for that one! )...You can actually see history repeating itself over and over.
I received this e-mail also...I can sympathize with the authors frustration but I won't hold to separatist views. I believe there's more important battles to be won to safeguard "my" America.

BTW....The "Sons of Liberty" were also called "Sons of...something else"!

Tory Tim
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Old 07-25-2002, 03:06 PM
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Remember "Don't Shoot the messenger".....oh, that the other thread.

I saw this and while I'm not bothered by "In God we Trust" ..I personally take it to mean "Higher Power", which is different for everyone.

The basic message that caught me was that persons becoming American should become part of the "Great Melting Pot".

The picture thing in Florida wasn't a big deal to me. But I have know people that came here in the fifties, worked in the factories, raised kids and sent them to college, but never bothered to learn English. It was impossible to talk to them when I visited their house. It was their choice but I always thought that it was kinda strange. If I was going to live in Italy, I'd learn Italian, if I was going to live in Russia, Russian. But maybe that's just me.

Thanks for all the responses, didn't mean to get anyone too wound up.

Bob Sigmon
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Old 07-25-2002, 03:28 PM
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J.Arthur Loose J.Arthur Loose is offline
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I totally agree that '...when in Rome, do as the Romans do,' is a good principle to live by.

And the 'melting pot,' is a good analogy for me because we all seem to affect and be affected by what gets put in it.

A New Zealand friend of mine once said 'America has the best of things and the worst of things.'

I agree with that too.

Good food for thought, Bob.

Thanks for the post.


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Old 07-25-2002, 05:01 PM
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Thanks Bob,

I view that article as one persons lashing out at the absurdity of the "politically correct movement" in America...and he, like many of us, has had enough!
9-11 pretty much broke the rose colored glasses view of our little "secure" part of the world that the liberal "let the gov't. run our lives" minds would have us embrace.
It's still the "wild west" out there and unfortunately in this country and elsewhere...life...has little value.
People are still in shock over the disaster at the world trade center and it can be compared to the loss of a loved one....you never quite recover. But you honor their memory...take what they taught you...and carry on from there.
From evil...comes good...from death... comes life.
I believe we are witnessing the "death rattle" of the pc movement....for now.

Keep us thinkin' Bob!

Tim
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Old 07-25-2002, 05:31 PM
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Tim,

I hope the PC thing will settle down a bit. Some time I just like to call a spade, a spade.

It was soooooooooo nice not to hear partisan bickering on the hill for a few months! But.............................their back!

Bob Sigmon
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  #10  
Old 07-30-2002, 06:03 AM
PeterAtwood PeterAtwood is offline
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Well, I think that the veil is an outrage. This is America and our faces are on our driver's #######s. And while I believe that we all have a right to practice our religions I have to say that I don't much care for the Muslims or any other group that treat women that poorly. I think it's wrong to cover women's faces with veils and I think most of what their culture stands for is just plain bad.

It's a fact that any culture that has ever achieved anything of note in the past 500 years has had a more enlightened view towards their women. If you look at which cultures have innovated and which have stagnated you will see this is true. Cultures that do not respect their women are doomed to mediocrity or worse. Look at AIDS in Africa, all of the Muslim countries and much of the third world.

The PC movement is rubbish. I am a fairly liberal minded person living in an extremely leftwing college community and I find this whole diversity thing to be a joke. Funny how you can be a practicing Democrat and still find yourself siding with the rightwing on some of these issues...


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Old 08-01-2002, 10:27 AM
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Michael Sanchez Michael Sanchez is offline
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Peter I hear what you're saying, but this country was established around those wanting to express their beliefs. Why change it now? To many people their relegion is there culture. You have Mormons who don't drink, stay away from caffine, and spend a long time in church. You have Jews, buddists, catholics, and even pagani people who all live their lives differently and some wear different clothes. But if we start condeming one group of people because of their relegion, then what have we accomplished.

I do agree with Bob. I find it very dishearting that many people feel they don't need to learn the language. Here in California we are still debating over whether we should have spanish speaking classrooms or not. Being hispanic (me) I believe that one should definitely keep to their culture, but if you are going to live somewhere that is not your native country you should try and learn the that culture and the language.

Johnathan, I'm with you brother. Whos God or Goddess. Does it matter? :confused: As far as I'm concerned they are all portraying the same thing, a creator, higher power, proffit , deity.

OK this is too deep for even my 2 cents.

I say all ya all get out and let me have my land back My people were here first :evil

Mike


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Old 08-02-2002, 09:12 AM
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Peter,

One of my oldest, dearest friends is a Muslim woman. Her family is from South Africa by way of India. She does not need to wear a veil, or even a headscarf. When we became friends she really wasn't supposed to talk to 'boys,' at junior high-school, but her parents realized I was a good friend and eventually came to appreciate my friendship with their daughter. Now she is like a sister to me and I'd kill or be killed for her sake.

Not all Muslims treat their women badly. Ironically, the countries that do have been largely whipped into the frenzy by our very own CIA. How many people know that WE overthrew Iran's DEMOCRACY in the 50's because they had the audacity to start wanting to control their own oil? Or that we created and maintain the MONARCHY in Saudi Arabia ( for cheap oil ) where women can't drive or leave the house uncovered? Or that we completely financed the Taliban and that Bush and Bin Laden were business partners? ( Again... Think Oil. ) It won't make me any friends to say it, but we bear huge responsibility for the declines in many of these countries where the treatment of women has gotten to the place it has.

...And the West has had it's own share of treating women very badly. Take a look at Medieval Europe. Women got burned at the stake for trying to mitigate the pains of childbirth. Ironically, the Islamic world was a beacon of enlightenment by comparison during the same period!

Women in Texas just got the right to own their own property a couple years ago... seriously! Up until then the husband technically owned and controlled everything- even a bank account solely in her name.

I guess my point is that we get an awful lot of propaganda concerning 'Muslims,' and what '...they believe,' in the media at present.

A lot of it is pure bunk.


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