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Heat Treating and Metallurgy Discussion of heat treatment and metallurgy in knife making.

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  #1  
Old 06-13-2005, 07:54 PM
pjelect pjelect is offline
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HT SS foil

I have used D-2 and ATS-34 in SS foil in the past with good results. For some reason I was under the impression(or misinformation) that each knife had to be wrapped individually. From some of these posts I gather this is not the case. If one foil package is ok for multiple blades, is there a good cut off point for the number of blades? (2,4,5, etc)? Should I add up the thicknessness of all the knives and adjust my soak times to reflect one thicker piece of steel? Is there a greater chance of warpage using just 1 package? Is one package ok for the simple carbon steels, also? I use stock removal and usually grind my blades to 60-80% of their finished size before heat treat. I'm currently using some 01 and an olive oil quench. Can I quench multiple blades while still in the foil or would I have to pull them out one at a time to quench? Thanx, gentlemen, in advance, Pat McGroder
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Old 06-14-2005, 01:02 AM
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Pat,

O1 and foil? Can't help you there.

I put 2 blades in one packet all the time. And plate quench while in the packet. Haven't tried more than that myself.

Hope that helps,

Steve


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Old 06-14-2005, 05:22 PM
RJ Martin RJ Martin is offline
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Pat: You can place multiple blades in your foil pack, assuming you're going to cut the foil and let the blades slide into your oil quench bath. In that case, I'd arrange the blades in a single layer in the packet.
If you're leaving the blades in the packet when you quench (which I don't recommend) then you definitely want a single layer of blades, with plenty of space between each blade in the packet. Stacking the blades will most definitely affect the quench rate and cause warpage and ruined blades.

Most of us use SS foil for heat treating air hardening steels, which are arranged in a single layer in the foil pack. All the blades are the same thickness, because the packet is quenched between aluminum plates instead of oil.

You might be better served with a product called Turco, generally known as "anti-scale coating". This stuff is a powder that will protect your carbon steel blade from scaling and eliminates the need for foil. It also doesn't interfere with the quench process, is inexpensive and easy to use. You heat the blades to around 400F and either dip them in the powder or sprinkle the powder generously onto all surgaces of the knife. The powder melts, then hardens. You can buy it from K and G Finishing or search the web for the Turco website. You might like it better than foil.


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Old 06-15-2005, 01:17 PM
pjelect pjelect is offline
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Thanks, RJ Martin for the info. I've seen the Turco in previous posts and might give that a try.
Thanx, Pat McGroder
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Old 06-15-2005, 01:22 PM
pjelect pjelect is offline
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Interesting answer, SteveS. Are you saying that 01 does not benefit (scale wise) from being heat treated in foil? Thanx, Pat McGroder
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Old 06-15-2005, 01:32 PM
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Actually, Pat I didn't know you could use foil on oil/water hardening steels. By the time you get the blade out of the foil it'd be too cool for the quench to work. Unless you heat it up higher than you should for a hardening cycle.

I've used Turco before. It worked fine until I lost the can . But, heck, scale from a quick heat up isn't that big a deal.

Are you heating in an oven or forge?

Steve


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Old 06-16-2005, 06:32 AM
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Steve: You can use foil to HT high carbon steels. You have to have your act together so you can get the blade from the furnace, snip the packet and drop the blades into the quench (tang first). With practice, this can be done in just a few seconds.


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Old 06-16-2005, 12:19 PM
hogcat hogcat is offline
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Also remember that even though you can put several blades in the one foil wrap, some steels need to be quenched ASAP (a few seconds) after coming out of the oven. 30 seconds after coming out of the heat treat temps can be TOO long for a good heat treat to work right before being quenched. Thats why when I work with 440c & D2 I wrap each one seperate and leave them in the oven till I have quenched them one at a time. I think even with O1 tool steel, you want to quench it while it is still bright orange. If it has lost most of its "glow" before you dip it, the hardness will be off of its mark.


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Old 06-18-2005, 12:47 AM
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Steve, I have two ht ovens. An 8"X 9"X 5" that will heat to 2000' and an 8" X 21" X 5" I built myself. Both are controlled by a Paragon digital controller. You guys are so right about the time to quench for 01. When I do them fast enough I get 62-63R before tempering and when I'm slow it's lucky to hit 55R.
The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning toward the Turco. Thanx, Pat McGroder
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Old 06-30-2005, 02:57 PM
RJ Martin RJ Martin is offline
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Hogcat: I am speaking of putting multiple blades in the pack in a single layer, not stacked. All blades must be of the same thickness. The packet is laid horizontally, not vertically as in your picture. Upon removal (supported from underneath by a fork), the packet of red hot blades is placed between two aluminum plates for quenching. Thus, perhaps 10 blades can be removed at the same instant, and quenched without the in-out cycle required for individual blades.


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