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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 03-03-2015, 06:30 AM
AllanBeasley AllanBeasley is offline
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The 1080 finally showed up

I got a 3 foot bar of 1080 in and got to work yesterday. I took the advice to work on a shorter knife, stuck to what I was comfortable working on and it WAS going beautifully. I got everything cut to shape, loaded it in the forge and heated to non-ferrous and quenched. THEN I found tempering instructions using the forge and figured it was worth a shot. (SPOILER ALERT it was not worth a shot) I really botched it, resulting in a crack going through the bevel kinda in the shape pf the new tip. I got mad and was about to trash it until I whipped it into the floor point first to try to shatter it. It dug a surprisingly big divot out of the floor and didn't even scratch the tip of the blade. I figured it was worth saving, so I proceeded to grind some of the discoloration from the forge off and I was finally able to get the blade to break the rest of the way through. I still have the other part to study the grain in better light, it looked like a really nice light gray. The negative- I blew the tempering and need to just do it in the oven like a normal person. The positive- I did WAY better shaping the handle, I got to try out Devcon Two Ton epoxy and like it, I learned how to handle my bench grinder WAY more effectively than ever before, I learned that my 2x72 belt is too worn out to perform so I ordered more in 80 grit instead of the 100 grit that came with the Grizzly. I will be hitting Northern Tool to see if they have individual 2x72 belts I can see, handle and buy in person so I know what grits to order online. All of this SHOULD result in a MUCH better blade next time. I also couldn't get all of the epoxy out of the joint at the top of the scales because the clamp was TOTALLY blocking access. Next time I'll have a damp rag wrapped around a stick ready to go. It feels REALLY good in the hand, I held it and messed with it for a few hours after I thought I was done and realized I needed to go soften up the curves and some weak edges a bit more before it was good. All of this has come from feedback from you guys, I'm starting to enjoy seeing the results.







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  #2  
Old 03-03-2015, 08:18 AM
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ricky_arthur ricky_arthur is offline
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Get 60,120,220,400 grit belts. Order mostly 60 grit . Trugrit.com is where I order mine. for fine grit belts, the trizact belts as near as I can tell, Never wear out. . On the epoxy. I use q tips with alcohol to remove it before it sets. If I miss a little then I use a 1/8 brass rod flattened and sharpened to remove it. (Another tip from Rays video). Lastly. You need to try a full flat grind. Those 1/4 bevels are useful on hatchets.

Last edited by ricky_arthur; 03-03-2015 at 08:23 AM.
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  #3  
Old 03-03-2015, 08:22 AM
AllanBeasley AllanBeasley is offline
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Originally Posted by ricky_arthur View Post
Get 60,120,220,400 grit belts. Trugrit.com is where I order mine. The trizact belts as near as I can tell, Never wear out. You will use far more of the 60 Grit ceramic. On the epoxy. I use q tips with alcohol to remove it before it sets. If I miss a little then I use a 1/8 brass rod flattened and sharpened to remove it. (Another tip from Rays video). Lastly. You need to try a full flat grind. Those 1/4 bevels are useful on hatches.
Believe me I tried to get the bevel farther up the blade face, I wanted it to be at least halfway so that my sharpening system got more bang for my buck. After the break/salvage I just couldn't get it right. Before the break it was a MUCH nice piece of work. I'll look at Trugrit and see if I can afford anything there before more money comes in from somewhere. If not, I'll just have to improvise with what I have on hand. I also have a wide range of grits on my Work Sharp knife grinder to help clean everything up after the 80 grit treatment.
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  #4  
Old 03-03-2015, 08:32 AM
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ricky_arthur ricky_arthur is offline
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Another thing that might help. After you drill your scales for the pins. Insert the pins in the scales to align them (off the blade) and shape the front of them. It is much easier to do this part before attaching to the blade. And will allow you to get them perfectly even.
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  #5  
Old 03-03-2015, 08:41 AM
AllanBeasley AllanBeasley is offline
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I've been doing that with the pins mounted in just the scales. It's been tricky learning that and there's the persistent fear of oversanding leaving me with something I can't repair. It's already helped a lot, I'm just still having to go through the learning process. I've been on the lookout for someone locally that can teach me a lot of these things and cut down my learning process with no luck YET. I'm sure it will eventually happen. I also checked Trugrit and it looks like the belts run $10 each roughly. Too broke for them today, but when funds open back up that's not too bad of a price. I MIGHT be able to find them somewhere around here to buy them too. Possibly Northern.
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  #6  
Old 03-03-2015, 08:52 AM
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ricky_arthur ricky_arthur is offline
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Yep. Everything about this hobby is expensive. I forgot to ask about your heat treat process. How did you Crack the blade? did it Crack during quench? If so what is your quenchant? Also what temp did you quench at and how did you know? Did it Crack after quench? How soon did you get it into Temper?
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  #7  
Old 03-03-2015, 09:06 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Belts are expensive but cheap belts will cost you much more than expensive belts because you'll need more of them and because they just flat out don't work as well. TruGrit has the best prices on belts, the best brands, AND they stock virtually every type of belts. Definitely go with Ricky's suggestion of 60 (ceramic VSM belts are the best for the money), 120 (Norton), 220 (Norton), and 400 (Hermes) and, again as Ricky said, buy more of the 60's. I usually buy 10 of the 60 to 5 of each of the others. I would, however, get the types of belts I indicated (VSM, Norton, etc) rather than the Tr-Zact to start with. By all means try every type of belt they have in their inventory over time, you will eventually settle on the combo that works for you as Ricky has done. But, TriZact belts are intended to be finishing belts, they don't wear out very fast but they don't cut like ceramic either.

Some of the best advice I ever received was to treat belts like they were free. That's hard advice to follow when you are first starting. But, a dull belt will ruin a grind in the blink of an eye and then how much money did you save? With practice you'll learn how far you can push a belt. Mostly its the 60's that need to be fresh and sharp, the finer belts can be pushed further in most instances...


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  #8  
Old 03-03-2015, 09:29 AM
AllanBeasley AllanBeasley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricky_arthur View Post
Yep. Everything about this hobby is expensive. I forgot to ask about your heat treat process. How did you Crack the blade? did it Crack during quench? If so what is your quenchant? Also what temp did you quench at and how did you know? Did it Crack after quench? How soon did you get it into Temper?
Right now it's a basic water quench, I have some logistics issues with using oil, namely a good container that won't melt when the oil lights up. I heated it until it had JUST turned non-ferrous and quenched. It was fine at that point. I read online where someone was heating the blade up in the forge in short bursts to temper and I did that and quenched again and it went on me. I SHOULD have used the oven like I planned to but the temptation was too great. I plan on moving to canola oil as soon as I figure out how to properly handle it, or some spent motor oil.
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  #9  
Old 03-03-2015, 09:32 AM
AllanBeasley AllanBeasley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Rogers View Post
Belts are expensive but cheap belts will cost you much more than expensive belts because you'll need more of them and because they just flat out don't work as well. TruGrit has the best prices on belts, the best brands, AND they stock virtually every type of belts. Definitely go with Ricky's suggestion of 60 (ceramic VSM belts are the best for the money), 120 (Norton), 220 (Norton), and 400 (Hermes) and, again as Ricky said, buy more of the 60's. I usually buy 10 of the 60 to 5 of each of the others. I would, however, get the types of belts I indicated (VSM, Norton, etc) rather than the Tr-Zact to start with. By all means try every type of belt they have in their inventory over time, you will eventually settle on the combo that works for you as Ricky has done. But, TriZact belts are intended to be finishing belts, they don't wear out very fast but they don't cut like ceramic either.

Some of the best advice I ever received was to treat belts like they were free. That's hard advice to follow when you are first starting. But, a dull belt will ruin a grind in the blink of an eye and then how much money did you save? With practice you'll learn how far you can push a belt. Mostly its the 60's that need to be fresh and sharp, the finer belts can be pushed further in most instances...
I have learned the hard way what worn out belts can do, which is how I recognized just how bad my original belt had gotten. I plan on picking the good ones up slowly as I am able, and in my experience the finishing belts ALWAYS last a lot longer. I also need to keep the belts separate for doing wood scales and blade shaping. That seems to have caused a lot of issues. After mixing them, the belt won't really chew off much metal and it burns the wood faster than it sands.
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  #10  
Old 03-03-2015, 09:41 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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QUOTE: or some spent motor oil

No, no, a thousand times no. There are many kinds of oil that we can 'make do' with and get acceptable results but motor oil is a very bad choice. Motor oil has additives that help it survive in its intended environment and that formulation makes it less effective as a quenching oil than just about anything else you could be using. For 1084 stay with the Canola oil (when you can get it).

We generally say that you want at least 3 gallons of oil when you quench. A small bucket can be used or even a section of pipe if you can cap one end and if you like to quench tip down (as I do).....


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  #11  
Old 03-03-2015, 09:42 AM
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ricky_arthur ricky_arthur is offline
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You are going to break some blades quenching in water. Go to the harware store. They sell plain empty metal paint cans for about 2$. I like it because I can set the can on my oven cooktop to heat the oil (I bought a used kitchen oven and use it in my shop) I use one for smaller blades and a pvc pipe with one end capped for longer blades. Then get some canola oil. The cost of those 2 items will be less than the steel you lose on a broken blade. Forget the forge temper. Clean the oil off the blade and use the kitchen Oven. As long as you don't leave oil on and stink up the house, wives will usually allow a little piece of metal in the oven. Knife making is hard enough, Don't complicate things unnecessarily.

Last edited by ricky_arthur; 03-03-2015 at 09:50 AM.
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  #12  
Old 03-03-2015, 09:56 AM
AllanBeasley AllanBeasley is offline
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The paint can is a great idea. I'm gonna use that. I was thinking WAY more complicated. You'd be surprised at the requests I get. One that keeps coming up is quenching in iced salt water. I have had to say NO to that to many times now.
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  #13  
Old 03-03-2015, 10:44 AM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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I use a turkey fryer so that I can heat the oil outside the house. The kettles will hold a good volume of oil and they have a lid to cover it if the oil flashes over. I use peanut oil and have never had that happen but better to have the lid and not need it than to need it and not have it. It's also nice to have a fire extinguisher on hand but don't even think that you can use a garden hose. If the oil flashes over because you became distracted and overheated it, though it would take a while, pouring water on it will cause a huge flair of burning oil. However if you watch things as the oil heats and then turn the burner off you shouldn't have any problem in the first place. I've never had a fire in my tank just from quenching a hot blade in warm oil, just a little flair around the tang where it sticks out of the oil.

Doug


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  #14  
Old 03-03-2015, 10:54 AM
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ricky_arthur ricky_arthur is offline
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Originally Posted by AllanBeasley View Post
d. You'd be surprised at the requests I get. One that keeps coming up is quenching in iced salt water. I have had to say NO to that to many times now.
Who, is requesting an iced brine quench? Someone who wants to see your hard made blades in several pieces? Your 1080 steel does not require those quench speeds, that is why it was recommended to you.
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Old 03-03-2015, 12:11 PM
AllanBeasley AllanBeasley is offline
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Originally Posted by ricky_arthur View Post
Who, is requesting an iced brine quench? Someone who wants to see your hard made blades in several pieces? Your 1080 steel does not require those quench speeds, that is why it was recommended to you.
I actually got that request from a few different people. I assume they all read the same Soldier of Fortune back issues. I DID go buy the can and the canola oil. Now I just need a dry day to work outside with. I ALSO have a little something special to try out that I'll reveal later if successful.
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