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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #1  
Old 12-14-2003, 01:03 AM
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Messinger Messinger is offline
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0-80 tapping - I want to SCREAM!!!!!

I busted two more 0-80 taps tonight. That's two I've busted by hand and two more busted in the tapmatic and I'v tapped fewer than a dozen holes. I am ready to start throwing things I'm so fed up. I need help.

The first two were taper taps in HSS. The last two were plug taps also in HSS. I've been trying to tap .06" 6AL4V. Per the recomendation of a tool supplier I've been using a cobalt 3/64" bit, and lightly countersinking the hole.

I have been trying to keep the allignment as straight as possible to keep side forces off the tap, and turn it no more than 1/3 turn before reversing to clear the chip (when doing this by hand), and have been using light machine oil. But the taps keep snapping in the hole. Did I get bad advice on the drill size? Should I be using a drill larger than 3/64"? If I don't figure this out soon I'm going to have a fit.

-Ben the tap snapper

Last edited by Messinger; 12-14-2003 at 01:08 AM.
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  #2  
Old 12-14-2003, 07:19 AM
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Don Robinson Don Robinson is offline
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Ben, the 3/64" drill is the commonly recommended tap size for a #0-80 thread.

However, titanium is much harder to tap than steel. A steel screw will strip out before the Ti does. I don't use #0-80 screws, but I used to. Go up to the next size drill, which is a #55 (.052"). You will still have a stronger threaded hole than the screw you put into it.

In Ti, always use the next size up over the recommended tap drill size. Get youself a tap drill chart from your supplier. It will probably have a number, letter, fractional size chart on it too.

Don't use anything to tap 0-80 and 2-56 taps except your fingers wrapped around the body of the tap wrench. Don't use the bar to turn the tap. And you're right, the tap must be kept in alignment with the hole. :cool:

Never use anything except a 2 fluted spiral point tap for thru holes. Taper and plug taps don't work well with Ti.

Throw the Tap-Matic away.

Last edited by Don Robinson; 12-14-2003 at 07:21 AM.
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  #3  
Old 12-14-2003, 08:36 AM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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I basically agree with what Don said except that I use a #54 drill and have not had a problem. Also, I use a new tap on each folder - that's a lot cheaper than trying to remove a broken tap.

My preferance is to support the small taps in with some type of frame such as one of the many hand tappers that are on the market or one of the small piloted tap handles that can be supported in a drill press. My hands don't seem steady enough to use an unsupported hand tap without snapping that little sucker right off! Here is the tool I built to do that job:



The Tap-Matic is not good for small taps in titanium as you have discovered but I don't think I'd throw it away. I find mine to be very useful when making jigs and milling plates.....


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  #4  
Old 12-14-2003, 11:44 AM
Dave Kelly Dave Kelly is offline
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Ben, I know how frustrating broken taps are, I broke many taps using a hand tapper. When I made my first folder I bought 2 taps thinking that would last a while well I was wrong I broke both of them right a way so I ordered 6 more, broke 2 more, called them a few choice names before I realized there's got to be a better way.
This may not be the right way but I'll tell you how I do it and I haven't broken a tap since. Drill the holes using 3/64 or #55 bit, de-burr on your surface plate and blow out the holes. I have a pana vise with a swivel head that I have cut two saw kerfs in the same place towards the front of both jaw pads, sitting in front of the vise, I swivel the head until the jaws are facing me in the plumb, vertical position, put the liner with the bolster/scale side facing you in the kerf of both jaw pads, tighten the vise. Chuck your tap into a reversable variable speed cordless drill, I have a small drill level so I keep the drill as level and straight as I can, dip the tip of the tap in your thread cutting oil (tap magic for me) put the tip of the tap in the drilled hole, take a breath, hold it and pull the trigger, when you get close to the end of the tap threads stop and reverse the drill. Clean out the tap threads each time you drill a hole. Like I said I haven't broken a tap since I have done it this way and I'm still using the same tap and I've drilled a lot of holes with it. I hope this helps, Dave
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  #5  
Old 12-14-2003, 12:21 PM
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Thanks for the tips, guys. I'll try moving to a #55 or #54 bit for the pilot hole. I'm betting that will be the key. Using the 3/64 bit I've been having trouble even getting the tap started. That would seem to tell me that 3/64 is just too small. Also, I'll stop using machine oil and get some cutting fluid. That'll be phase one. If I'm still busting them I'll buy or build a hand tapper like Ray has. I've heard of many people useing power screw####### (pencil type) but that just scares me. Maybe I'll just have to try it and see what happens. (I've been using a tap holder without the cross bar)

Regarding the tap type - I'm only familiar with taper, plug, and bottoming. Don, you said use a spiral point, not a taper or plug. Is a spiral point and a taper the same type? In 0-80 I can only find taps listed as taper, plug, and bottoming.

Last question (for now) - do you guys chamfer/countersink the pilot hole before tapping?

Thanks again guys. Others have been helpful to me as well, but you three (Don, Ray, and Dave) have been like the 'three amigos' always coming to my aid.

-Ben

Last edited by Messinger; 12-14-2003 at 12:39 PM.
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  #6  
Old 12-14-2003, 01:24 PM
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I don't chamfer the hole before tapping, haven't felt the need since the tap starts just fine without it. After tapping there is usually a little burm built up around the hole and I often chamfer yto remove that.

For what it's worth, I don't recall ever breaking a fresh, sharp tap using my hand tapper. The only taps that break seem to be the dull ones, which is why I use a new tap for each knife.

BTW, on larger taps like 2-56 you can actually feel when the tap is sticking and you may hear a small *tick* sound each time it lets go and cuts a little. To me, this means that tap is going dull and I back it out right away and toss it. All things considered, it is really amazing how much torqueing one of those little HSS taps will take before it breaks.

Yes, there is a bewildering array of tap styles and sizes available. I use plain HSS tapered taps which, I believe, is what Don is recommending. I've tried other styles, some with exotic coatings, some very expensive, but nothing else works as well for the price as plain HSS with cutting fluid .....


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  #7  
Old 12-14-2003, 01:25 PM
Dave Kelly Dave Kelly is offline
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I don't chamfer/ countersink, I like to have as many threads as I can. If I'm not mistaken, taper, plug and bottoming refer to the tap chamfers and the number of cutting threads at the end of the tap. Some of the tap types that I'm aware of are standard hand, spiral pointed and forming. I use the spiral pointed taper 2 flute H2 in HSS
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  #8  
Old 12-14-2003, 03:37 PM
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Ben said, "Regarding the tap type - I'm only familiar with taper, plug, and bottoming. Don, you said use a spiral point, not a taper or plug. Is a spiral point and a taper the same type? In 0-80 I can only find taps listed as taper, plug, and bottoming.

Last question (for now) - do you guys chamfer/countersink the pilot hole before tapping? "

A spiral point tap is tapered, yes, but in a special way so that the chips are pushed ahead of the tap, instead of coming upward thru the flutes. A spiral point tap usually has only two flutes, which makes it much stronger, since the web is thicker.

As I said, though, use these for tapping all the way thru, since the chips don't come out the top, they are pushed downward ahead of the tap.

On a thin Ti scale, you need all the threads you can get, so I don't chamfer the hole. I sand the raised burr off after tapping.

On a thicker workpiece, you should chamfer the hole before tapping to remove the first imperfect thread, which raises as a burr.

On .050 Ti, using a spiral point tap, there's no need to back out. Go all the way thru in one pass.



You shouldn't have any trouble finding spiral point taps. They're industrial tools. Look in the MSC catalog, or your local industrial supply house.
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  #9  
Old 12-14-2003, 09:32 PM
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Brett Schaller Brett Schaller is offline
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Check out item number 48656870 in the MSC book (pg. 323 of the 2003/2004 big book.) I've been using one of these in my drill press for about a year and haven't broken an 0-80 since.

Note: The drill press is just used to position and stabilize the tool. Turn the tool by hand, don't actually turn the drill press on.


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  #10  
Old 12-15-2003, 12:27 AM
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The lightbulb just went on! Spiral point! I was thinking Don meant spiral flute. Now I get it. I researched taps some more on the internet and now I get it - the sprial tip style has a channel cut just at the tip trailing away from the flute. Since the channel trails away from the flute vs. leads, the chips are pushed down and ahead of the tap. Cool design! I was really confused about what you were talking about, but now I get it (having seen a picture). Enco has them for $6.89, so this week I'll order a handful, along with #55
bits and we'll give this another shot.

best regards,
Ben
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  #11  
Old 12-15-2003, 10:31 PM
John T Wylie Jr John T Wylie Jr is offline
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what is the ideal bit size for tapping ti for 2-56 ?

I have been having a hell of a time tapping .100 and .125 TI .

thanks...

John
the other tap snapper


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  #12  
Old 12-16-2003, 07:04 AM
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I think everyone who has made a linerlock has has this problem at first. I use the two flute taps that have already been mentioned. I made a tapping device useing a cordless screwdriver and one of those old "turn your electric drill into a drill press gizmos". I have tapped 50+ holes ( 0-80 ) in ti ranging from .040 to .063 thick with a single two flute tap before it gave up and broke. One thing that has not been mentioned is that when a tap breaks in a piece of titanium, no worries, just toss the piece of ti in some ferric cloride overnight. The tap will be gone in the morning and the titanium will look just like it did when you put it in.




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  #13  
Old 12-16-2003, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vegas Henchman
what is the ideal bit size for tapping ti for 2-56 ?

I have been having a hell of a time tapping .100 and .125 TI .

thanks...

John
the other tap snapper
I use a #49 (.0730) drill for #2-56.
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  #14  
Old 12-16-2003, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stan Wilson
One thing that has not been mentioned is that when a tap breaks in a piece of titanium, no worries, just toss the piece of ti in some ferric cloride overnight. The tap will be gone in the morning and the titanium will look just like it did when you put it in.
Thanks Stan! That's priceless!

-Ben
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  #15  
Old 12-16-2003, 12:51 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Yeah, Stan, thanks for that ferric chloride idea. I had heard that before but never tried it and basically forgot it. But, I just threw an old tap in a cup of FeCl to see how it goes so I should remember that trick now.

A #51 drill has been good for me on 2-56 . 2-56 are pretty tough taps and seem able to handle the smaller hole if you feel the need for deeper threads.

While we're talking about 0-80's and frame locks, here's one I finished this morning:



This is a different way to use a frame lock. Instead of using it to make a tougher, stronger knife, it is used here to make the knife smaller and lighter. This knife has six 0-80 screws in it, is 5/16ths wide at the widest point, and weighs only 1.5 ounces. Notice too, that even a frame lock can be made with scales (I think Elishewitz was the first to do that)......


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