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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #16  
Old 01-06-2014, 06:39 PM
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My bad, got to learn to read more carefully. Thanks J.


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  #17  
Old 01-06-2014, 08:24 PM
RHammer RHammer is offline
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Yep, rebar was used to heat the oil. The blade is 1084. I'm going to use something else next time. I don't like dropping 2 pcs. The blade looked like it was cooling while I was messing around with the rebar. 1 pc will give better consistency with my oven to oil quench time.
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  #18  
Old 01-07-2014, 04:40 AM
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Heat your oil and your tempering oven before you start to heat up your blade for the quench. The oil will maintain it's heat fairly well while you're doing that and the oven will be ready and waiting.
I use and old charcoal starter to warm my oil and a candy t-meter to check it's heat. Looking for an old RV elec waterheater, 4-5 gal size, to convert. Already has a t-stat and heater built in.


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  #19  
Old 01-07-2014, 05:10 PM
RHammer RHammer is offline
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I use my HT oven to temper for now. I haven't bought the toaster oven to convert yet. I left the blade in the vice grips I used to handle it during quench, let the oven cool down, then run it at 400 degrees.

Good idea to pre-heat. That would take some of the busyness out of the equation at the critical time. I need to do some work there.

Thanks
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  #20  
Old 01-08-2014, 05:32 AM
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Ahhh, becomes habit over time. Really makes things easier once you get the mind set to it.
Get used to using long handle tongs to handle the hot steel. It'll save your fingers in the long run and you won't ruin your visegrips.


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  #21  
Old 01-08-2014, 11:19 AM
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I used to heat my oil in a steel pot on a hot plate, and then pour it into my quench tank. Then I made a vertical quench tank and put an electric water heater element in the bottom.

Now I just hang a meat thermometer in the top of the tank, flip a switch for about a minute (depending on how cold the shop is) and when it gets to temp, I shut it off.

Meanwhile, I don't have to worry about opening my oven or having my blades cool on me.


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  #22  
Old 01-08-2014, 09:41 PM
RHammer RHammer is offline
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I like that. I will start to refine my quench tank
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  #23  
Old 01-26-2014, 11:01 PM
RHammer RHammer is offline
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I had a friend check the hardness on my blade with his Rockwell hardness tester. Came out at 30. That sucks. I couldn't believe the number so I finally put an edge on it and rolled it on a 1/4" brass rod. It rolled the edge and it didn't return so it is obviously too soft.

So. . . I am running a test with my electric oven. I am running some test samples to proof my process. I will let you know how it turns out.

Here is what I am going to try:

1. heat the oven to 1400 deg (this takes about 30 min)
2. drop 2 pcs 1/2 x 12" heated steel into my quench oil (I can't find a charcoal lighter to heat the oil in my area right now.)
3. put 3 1084 steel samples in the oven and ramp up to 1475 deg. (Should take about 5 min to ramp up) Let soak for 5 minutes at 1475.
4. Quench 3 pcs making sure they are at 1475 when I quench
5. test hardness as quenched on sample 1
6. Soak 1 sample at 400 degrees for 1 hour and test
7. Soak 1 sample at 400 degrees for 1 hour x2 and test.

I want to see if I am getting it hard enough initially then the effects of normalizing at each stage. Finally, I will put an edge on each and see what happens.

Ideas?
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  #24  
Old 01-27-2014, 05:51 AM
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I may be missing something in the reading.
You say "normalizing" at each stage, this is first step in the heattreating process. Once you have followed with the hardening quench, no more normalizing.
Note that with a decently controlled oven you can let "soak" at 1475 a good bit longer with no problem, might not hurt to go a little longer than 5.
How thick is your steel (hoping 1/2" is width)?
You can warm your oil with a chunk or two of plain bar stock heated in your oven as it ramps up to temp.
How big is your quench container?
If volume is too small, multiple quenches will overheat the quench and ruin it's effectiveness. Get a candy thermometer to keep an eye on the quenchent heat.

Another thing that could be an issue: Depending on your oven control quality, many versions will hold their higher range temps much better than their lower range temps. 400* may be at the lower margin of control and not holding true. Might be worth watching a while to see if it's fluctuating and how much as it tries to hold the lower heat setting.


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Last edited by Crex; 01-27-2014 at 05:54 AM.
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  #25  
Old 01-27-2014, 10:39 PM
RHammer RHammer is offline
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Carl,

The steel is .140 thick. That's all I could find in 1084.

The 1/2" steel is rebar and is just to heat the oil. I have a thermometer to watch the oil temp. Good to know that holding at 1475 longer than 5 minutes isn't a problem.

I am using an auberins controller. I will watch the temps really close for this set. Can't do it until later this week. Work has me tied up
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  #26  
Old 02-08-2014, 11:49 AM
RHammer RHammer is offline
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Ran a second set of samples and still nowhere near the hardness I need.

Set up my quench tank with a heater under it and heated peanut oil to 120 degrees. I am using 3 gallons

Ran the oven up to 1400 degrees, put one sample of .140 thick 1084 in. Set the oven up to 1490 to get it to hold between 1475 - 1485. Once it hit 1475 I soaked for 5 minutes, took the first sample out and quenched. Put another piece in, let the oven get back up to 1475 and soaked the second piece for 5 minutes then quenched.

After everything cooled I put one sample back in the oven, heated it to 400 degrees and soaked it for 1 hour, pulled it out and let it air cool.

Now I have Sample 1 (as quenched) and Sample 2 (quenched and soaked once). To understand the process better, I had the two samples tested for hardness. Sample 1 was 38.1 and Sample 2 was 40.2.

I was going to run a third sample for a second 1 hour soak at 400 degrees but my oven program ended and the oven cooled too soon.

I thought that 1084 should be up around 60 under these conditions???

Any ideas? I think I'm losing my mind!!!!
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  #27  
Old 02-08-2014, 12:48 PM
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1084 should be above Rc 60 as quenched but don't be in a rush to lose your mind. First off, where did you get the 1084/how do you know it is 1084? Assuming you have high confidence that you have good steel, how long did it take to get the hot steel out of the oven and into the oil? If the answer is more than two seconds that could be a problem.

Was the steel sample you tested clean with parallel sides? Anything other than bright shiny perfectly flat steel can throw the hardness tester a curve. That's why we have that ugly flat area in front of the handle on the HT KITH knives.

Finally, are you sure the testing was done on Rockwell C scale on a tester calibrated for Rc 60? If the machine is normally used to test things that are supposed to be on the B scale it will not read correctly for your sample. If the machine is calibrated to test items that are supposed to be in the Rc 40 range, or any other range than 60, it will not read correctly on your sample. Maybe a simpler way to say it would be, was the sample tested by someone with a knowledge of knives or a general machine shop?

Maybe something I said above will provide the answer you need. If not, consider making a blade for the HT KITH (see the Sticky threads for details) because this type of thing is exactly why we created the HT KITH ....


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  #28  
Old 02-08-2014, 02:21 PM
RHammer RHammer is offline
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Ray,

I bought the steel from USAKnifemaker in November. Pretty sure its real 1084.

The steel went from the oven to the quench as fast as I possibly could. I even practiced the movement a couple of times. Confident it was less than 2 seconds.

I ground the steel with a used 120 belt to clean the scale off of the steel. Not polished but pretty clean. they tested it in 5 different areas and showed a range of about +/- 2

I asked the same question about testing to Rockwell C. The place I used to work has a quality control department. They are the ones that tested it.

I am going to get the the samples back and grind an edge on them to see if it will handle the testing.
I realize a quality edge is the goal regardless of Rockwell hardness testing.

I was planning on doing the HT KITH but wanted to be a little more confident in my process without wasting your time testing an inferior HT.

Thanks for the help. I will keep trying. This is another part of the hobby that I frankly enjoy!!
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  #29  
Old 02-08-2014, 03:09 PM
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Just to be clear, it really isn't necessary for the steel to be polished. But, any unevenness on either side or soft material, like a spec of scale, under the penetrator will throw the reading out.

Putting on an edge and testing is a good idea. Also, try breaking one of your 'as quenched' pieces. If it doesn't snap almost like glass you might want to send a piece of that steel to someone whose heat treatment you have faith in and have them HT it to see what happens because if your process is as good as it sounds then the steel isn't ...


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  #30  
Old 02-08-2014, 04:18 PM
RHammer RHammer is offline
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Sounds good Ray. Thanks.
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1084, bee, blade, brass, cold, edge, file, forge, full tang, handle, harden, heat, knife, knives, make, material, post, quenched, rebar, rod, scale, steel, tang, temper, vise


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