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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need.

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  #31  
Old 01-31-2012, 06:41 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Putting the blade inside the sealed pipe (sealed at one end) and grinding after HT is about as much as I can think of that would help with the tip of the blade. The bigger part of the blade will hold heat longer, the tip loses heat faster. So, if you pull the blade out of the heat at non-mag (maybe holding at an angle with the tip down so that less of the blade heat migrates to the tip) then back into the pipe to go back up to non-mag and just a bit more the tip won't have as much time to over heat. It's a tricky balancing act but that's how it is with a forge so you do the best you can do and that's all you can do. From that point on, the important thing is to establish a consistent method of HTing that particular steel in that particular thickness so that you can more easily HT future blades and have a high degree of confidence that your HT will come out as good as the blades you put through all that testing. That's why you have to do all the testing and even break the blade as well as pay close attention to each step of the HT. Think of HTing with a forge as a kind of formal dance, even a ballet if you will, where every move is precise and practiced to the point of excruciating repeatability .....


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  #32  
Old 01-31-2012, 08:01 PM
Doug Lester Doug Lester is offline
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Yes, there is a way to correct the tip getting hot ahead of the rest of your blade. That is to quench the tip only and then put it right back into the heat and let it heat back up with the rest of the knife. I got this tip from one of Ed Caffrey's videos. You don't even have to wait for the tip of the knife from getting above critical and it can save grain growth in that area.

Another thing that you can do to reduce this is to turn the heat back just a little. This allows the heat to disperce more evenly through the blade. My heat treating forge has a blown burner and I can get it burning below 1600 degrees by just about shutting the needle valve down all the way. You can also see if there is a cooler spot a little farther back in the forge or even run the tip in and out of a pass through port on the back of the forge.

Doug


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  #33  
Old 02-01-2012, 05:10 AM
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If you are getting 1084 up to red/orange it is most likely considerably too hot. Non-magnetic up to actual critical should be more in the range of dull red to red. When you check with the magnet you need to be looking at the color of the steel closely as it reaches nonmag not after it already has. Lock that color in your minds eye and get the rest of the blade to that color evenly....no ghosting shadows. This should get you better in the ballpark of temp. By the time you get the color evened out you will be in the "red zone" and 40 to 50 deg above nonmag which should be critical temp for 1084.

It sounds like you cannot regulate the temp in your forge. If its just the tip section place a partial sheild for the tip in the back section of the forge either a short section of pipe or some extra fire brick hollowed out (igloo shaped) that area from getting too hot while the rest catches up.
If your hot spot is in the middle or forward section of the forge you will have to move the blade back and forth to keep sections from over heating and get an even heat. I would think the black pipe insert would have remedied that, but without seeing your set up and procedure it is difficult to solve some of these problems. Can you post pics here?

The above recommendations for having your quench warmed, close and ready are also very important. Practice runs are a good thing, just make sure you have room to safely manuver.


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  #34  
Old 02-01-2012, 02:43 PM
cedarfluteman cedarfluteman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crex View Post
If you are getting 1084 up to red/orange it is most likely considerably too hot. Non-magnetic up to actual critical should be more in the range of dull red to red. When you check with the magnet you need to be looking at the color of the steel closely as it reaches nonmag not after it already has. Lock that color in your minds eye and get the rest of the blade to that color evenly....no ghosting shadows. This should get you better in the ballpark of temp. By the time you get the color evened out you will be in the "red zone" and 40 to 50 deg above nonmag which should be critical temp for 1084.

It sounds like you cannot regulate the temp in your forge. If its just the tip section place a partial sheild for the tip in the back section of the forge either a short section of pipe or some extra fire brick hollowed out (igloo shaped) that area from getting too hot while the rest catches up.
If your hot spot is in the middle or forward section of the forge you will have to move the blade back and forth to keep sections from over heating and get an even heat. I would think the black pipe insert would have remedied that, but without seeing your set up and procedure it is difficult to solve some of these problems. Can you post pics here?

The above recommendations for having your quench warmed, close and ready are also very important. Practice runs are a good thing, just make sure you have room to safely manuver.
My forge has a box shape with openings on both ends. It has 2 ports on top that blast the fire down into the forge. I can control the ports individually with valves. So far I just let them both blast away. I put the pipe in the forge to help even out the heat. I don't have a cap on the pipe yet. but I will when I can get a hold of one. Maybe that will help even out the heat on the blade. My biggest problem is I just don't know enough of what I am doing. I wish there was someone close by that could just show me what to do. I learn a lot quicker if I see something done. I will try to get some pictures of my forge. And thanks to all who try to help me. I really appreciate it.
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  #35  
Old 02-01-2012, 03:00 PM
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Eli Jensen Eli Jensen is offline
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I learned this trick when I torched HTed and when I built my small forge when I struggled to get enough heat. It also helped me even out the heat a bit.

Since the tip and end of the blade heats up in general, I heat up 1-3 inches before the blade starts on the handle to red/bright red. I do this first. I don't go past non-magnetic because grain growth could still be a problem even on a non edge area. Then heat up the rest of your blade. The heat will travel towards the blade and heat the blade near the handle as you heat other parts. I generally heat the tip last. My two brick forge is open on both ends so I simply move it in and out depending which part of the blade I want in the center of the forge which is hottest. I also aim to heat the spine first because it has the most mass, meaning a slower more controlled heating of the steel and more even heat.
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  #36  
Old 02-01-2012, 04:30 PM
cedarfluteman cedarfluteman is offline
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Here is what I am using for a forge
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSC_4978 (600x402).jpg (123.4 KB, 23 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_4979 (600x402).jpg (103.2 KB, 26 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_4980 (600x402).jpg (179.0 KB, 25 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_4981 (600x402).jpg (188.5 KB, 26 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_4982 (600x402).jpg (147.6 KB, 26 views)
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  #37  
Old 02-01-2012, 05:18 PM
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Eli Jensen Eli Jensen is offline
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What sort of bricks are those? You might also consider some satinite. Hopefully Ray and others can correct me if I'm wrong. but it appears both torches are directly heating the blades/pipe. What you want is a circulation. To achieve this, offset the torch portals to one side and construct a circular cavity. Yours seems large enough you could cut some kaolwool to make a circular cavity.
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  #38  
Old 02-01-2012, 05:59 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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Eli is referring to having the gasses in your forge swirl around the perimeter of the forge. That's what we try for in forge design because it gives a more even heat to whatever is in the forge and it is the reason all forges built for forging have round interiors. Square forges can do HT but not so good for forging. And, you want to avoid having the burners point directly at your blade because that usually results in serious hot spots, over heating, and tons of extra scale but the pipe will accomplish the same thing for now.

Looks like you're using a very nice implementation of my Dirt Simple burner. Obviously, they're working pretty well as you report the steel is getting more than hot enough. But, they aren't easy to turn down. Have you tried using just one burner? Might be hot enough and the slower heating might help you hit the target temp without exceeding it too quickly ...


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  #39  
Old 02-01-2012, 06:47 PM
cedarfluteman cedarfluteman is offline
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I was thinking next time I might try starting with 2 burners till the pipe gets real hot then go with one burner ( then put my knife in ) and that will help keep the heat off the tip more and it might even it out better? If one burner is hot enough to do the job? If I can find the cap for the pipe I would think that would help keep some of the heat off the tip also? One thing about it, if I ever get this figured out I'll never forget it!
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  #40  
Old 02-01-2012, 06:55 PM
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Sounds like a plan ....


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  #41  
Old 02-02-2012, 05:26 AM
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Thanks for posting the pics, helps alot. As you can see the advice you get will be more specific. Your approach to going to one burner may help, but you have a huge burner to chamber volume differential and that will be a problem for even heating. You may have to block off one end of the forge to get just one burner to work at a lower feed rate.
Can you get a longer section of pipe and place a piece of firebrick accross the back? This would make the pipe more efficient and even.
Heating from the center of the blade can work as Eli suggested but you will have to continually keep the blade moving so the cutting edge does not get over heated as well as the tip.......this does take practice.

Safety tip: Get your Lp tank further away from your forge with more air gap between. If the tank valve or connections start leaking in that enclosure, it'll only take one spark or dropped piece of hot steel to knock your britches off with part of you in them. Lp tank valves are notorious leakers. Also test your connections on a regular basis with soapy water. Joints and tubing get aged and cracked, just like we do.

On another note, wishing someone was close enough to confer with and learn from is a lot easier to get resolved if you fill out your profile with more info. Might be someone living right around the corner. Knifemakers are everywhere, we're normally just too busy in our shop to walk the streets looking for someone to help
A short drive to even another city would be very beneficial to your learning curve.
Also watch for weekend Hammer-in events you can attend. They are well worth the half day/spend the night effort. (if you are anywhere near No. GA you are welcome to visit my shop and to attend Trackrock the end of March)


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  #42  
Old 02-02-2012, 02:18 PM
cedarfluteman cedarfluteman is offline
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[
On another note, wishing someone was close enough to confer with and learn from is a lot easier to get resolved if you fill out your profile with more info. Might be someone living right around the corner. Knifemakers are everywhere, we're normally just too busy in our shop to walk the streets looking for someone to help


I live in north central Ohio. I do know a guy that does blacksmithing but he has been hard to catch up with. His job keeps him away a good share of the time. I would think he could help me out some. I know he is not a knife maker but he should know the forge and metal details being a blacksmith.

I updated my Profile

Last edited by cedarfluteman; 02-02-2012 at 02:29 PM. Reason: forgot something
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  #43  
Old 02-02-2012, 03:37 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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There are some blacksmiths who make knives and there are many others who do not. Most of the ones who don't make knives will not be able to help you much. They work with non-hardenable metals and lower temperatures than knifemaking requires. This may not have been as true in the old days when blacksmiths were the source of nearly any and all parts made from shaped metal but these days most blacksmiths deal with decorative scroll work and maybe maintaining period pieces like wagon wheel rims or possibly farm equipment. All of that is highly skilled metal work but almost entirely unrelated to the requirements of knife making....


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  #44  
Old 02-02-2012, 04:18 PM
cedarfluteman cedarfluteman is offline
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maybe heat treating myself wasn't such a good idea. Maybe I should just send them to a place that knows what there doing. I don't want to spend a lot of time and end up with junk knives. I just thought since I had the forge it was worth a try. It would save me the time sending the blades back and forth.
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  #45  
Old 02-02-2012, 05:10 PM
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Ray Rogers Ray Rogers is offline
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You can do it, it just takes some practice. What you have now probably isn't a 'junk' knife, most any serious attempt at HT will result in at least a usable knife. Test the blades you have and see for yourself what you have. They aren't likely to be the best blades ever made but they probably will perform as good or better than most commercial knives you have. But, we won't know until you test...


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